BREAKING NEWS: Hikers stuck in crevasse on Mt. Hood

[iain]

I'm not sure what it was like at 0900, but it was getting slushy during the rescue effort. Shaded areas were reasonably solid, good arresting material, but sun exposure made for some slush on top of an icier layer. In my opinion, a party of 3 or 4 should have been able to make the stop, but it would be unfair for me to say that with certainty. I've always been alarmed by parties above me when descending the south side. I'm more nervous there than on other, more difficult routes on the mountain. I've never roped up there. I'm very sorry this had to happen.

[btowle]

I guess that I have the dubious distinction of having to self arrest on the Hogsback a few years ago. The conditions were clouds below 7000 and clear above. The snow was covered by 3" of very hard ice. Not smooth like a skating rink, but lots of fist sized smooth bulges. If you climb much, I am sure you know what I'm talking about. Seven people summitted that day as far as I know. A single person and 3 parties of 2. We were the last to leave the summit. I was with my son who was about 16 at the time, and although we didn't rope up to summit, we decided to do so on the descent. The thought of him sliding down the hogsback wasn't very appealing.

He was ahead of me by half a rope length and about the time I got 30 feet below the pearly gates, one of the ice bulges broke off as I stepped on it. Then it was gore-tex on ice. Really, this slope isn't all that steep and while I couldn't instantly stop, I never got going that fast. My ice axe just raked over the surface.

I did stop myself about the time I got to my son, but didn't set my crampon front points before trying to set my ice axe by hitting the ice with all the force that I could muster from a prone position. The axe just glanced off and I took off down the hill again.

Again, I was almost stopped by self arrest, when I came to the end of the rope. My point is, that it is possible to self arrest on ice on this slope. I don't know the conditions, so maybe they were worse than my experience and certainly when the first two teams collided, everything would be much harder. No way is it anywhere near 65 degrees.

[payaso]

The circumstances of the Hood incident seem to reenforce thoughts about climbing less popular routes. Last year I climbed the DC route on Rainier with the masses and felt nervous about it. 100 or so people swithbacking up the mountain above the DC following the same set of tracks led to a bit of a backup. At one point an RMI guide who was tied to about 7 clients insisted upon passing us and other groups who were following the beaten track method. This irresponsible act of passing left many people quite vulnerable to a similar accident in my opinion. The guide passed us with 7 in tow. You cannot pass fast enough under those circumstances so for way too long, we were crossing ropes and getting way to cozy with members of their group. Had someone fallen it could very easily have become a big tumbling ball of string, flesh, and ice axes.We ended up having to pass them 10 minutes later anyway. I learned that I would rather kick my own steps or wait 10 minutes for them to go away. It is easy to see how this accident (Hood) could have happened.

[Marvin]

Having climbed Hood via the Hogsback just a couple of weeks ago it's quite easy to see why incidents like this will happen.

 

Inexperience coupled with arrogance.

 

While I can't know the state of those killed, may they rest in peace, or those involved in precipitating this incident, there was a disgusting amount of poor decision making on display when I was there.

 

A woman, crawling on her hands and knees up the ridge, utterly terrified; a man who slipped, fell and only barely managed to stop himself from sliding. People who shouldn't have been there. People who should be learning how to climb on routes within their capability.

 

The level of blatant idiocy that is increasingly visible as climbers become more numerous is expectable; the fact that in this pursuit you'll die if you're an idiot seems to be lost on the majority of them.

 

Barring an avalanche, strike of lighting, or heart attack, there is absolutely no excuse for a rope team to fall down this route. One person into a crevasse, sure, that happens. But not seven. That's stupid.

 

This isn't to say that this is precisely what caused the Hood incident; it is, however, a possibility, and definately something that will become more common.

 

Marvin

[Figger_Eight]

Interesting article on how it went down:

 

I guess if you were around, Marvin, it wouldn't have happened...?

 

Mt. Hood accident

[Marvin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Figger Eight:

I guess if you were around, Marvin, it wouldn't have happened...?

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Trivial rhetoric!

 

As stated, I don't know precisely what caused this incident. Those below the initial team were in an unfortunate position, but one that they should have been completely aware of. Being underneath a person is the same as being underneath a rock; hazardous.

 

If I'd been there it still would have happened. That's obvious. You've made an amateurish attempt at ignoring what I feel are objective, accurate comments; namely, there is a significant increase in climbers climbing in an unsafe manner, which will inherently result in an increase in stupid incidents.

 

Marvin

[Figger_Eight]

Jumping to the conclusion that everyone involved was just simply stupid, and that there is absolutely no excuse for this to have happened hardly qualifies as an objective statement. From the article it seems the two teams of firefighters just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like you said, you don't know what caused the parties above to fall, and I'm pretty certain everyone was aware of the risks of climbing below others. There is no way for climbers to avoid being above one another on this route unless you form two seperate lines of ascent and descent on either side of the schrund. Maybe we should go up and post signs and arrows to do this?

[Marvin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Figger Eight:

Jumping to the conclusion that everyone involved was just simply stupid, and that there is absolutely no excuse for this to have happened hardly qualifies as an objective statement. From the article it seems the two teams of firefighters just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like you said, you don't know what caused the parties above to fall, and I'm pretty certain everyone was aware of the risks of climbing below others. There is no way for climbers to avoid being above one another on this route unless you form two seperate lines of ascent and descent on either side of the schrund. Maybe we should go up and post signs and arrows to do this?

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Maybe I should take you through this? Perhaps you can't understand the whole tense/context thing? I'll try:

 

quote:

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Original:

Having climbed Hood via the Hogsback just a couple of weeks ago it's quite easy to see why incidents like this will happen.

 

Inexperience coupled with arrogance.

 

While I can't know the state of those killed, may they rest in peace, or those involved in precipitating this incident, there was a disgusting amount of poor decision making on display when I was there.

---

Quite specifically points out that I don't know whether or not the people killed were idiots. Or am I missing something?

 

quote:

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Original:

A woman, crawling on her hands and knees up the ridge, utterly terrified; a man who slipped, fell and only barely managed to stop himself from sliding. People who shouldn't have been there. People who should be learning how to climb on routes within their capability.

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That whole tense/context thing. Refers to the people I saw on Hood; not those recently involved. Pretty obvious, no?

 

quote:

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Original:

The level of blatant idiocy that is increasingly visible as climbers become more numerous is expectable; the fact that in this pursuit you'll die if you're an idiot seems to be lost on the majority of them.

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One of those general statements, not specifically intended for any one person or group. Pretty accurate too, wouldn't you say?

 

quote:

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Original:

Barring an avalanche, strike of lighting, or heart attack, there is absolutely no excuse for a rope team to fall down this route. One person into a crevasse, sure, that happens. But not seven. That's stupid.

---

Now here I am talking about the recent accident! It is stupid for seven people to fall into a crevasse because one person couldn't stop. Utterly dumb. And there is no excuse for a rope team to fall down this route. One person, sure; then everyone arrests. If they can't arrest, they don't tie in or they use running pro. If you can't arrest on the Hogsback, just what the hell are you doing with an ice axe?

 

quote:

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Original:

This isn't to say that this is precisely what caused the Hood incident; it is, however, a possibility, and definately something that will become more common.

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There I go again, pointing out that this isn't necessarily what caused the Hood incident. Could've been. Do you deny that?

 

I'm curious where you've come up with this argument that I'm saying the recent Hood incident *was* caused by stupidity?

 

I am saying that it's tragic; dead people aren't a happy occurrence. Preventable? Probably. Most things are.

 

If you operate from the perspective that a terrible tragedy has happened (one death is a terrible as a million, to whoever is involved), then you can take two courses of action.

 

1 - say it's unfortunate, sad, the people involved were unlucky, "God I hope it doesn't happen again!", then nothing more

 

2 - the above, then ask yourself, "What could have caused this? How could these causes be prevented in the future?".

 

I like to take the second course.

 

Do you discourage speculation on cause? Would you say that my theories are wild, hairy beasts that have no relevance to the data at hand? Somewhat tame, possibly understandable ideas with a thread of relevance? Sound, concrete examples of clear, rational thinking?

 

As opposed to qualifying my statements, be bold; make something original. Do it! What do you think causes an incident like the one on Hood?

 

quote:

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Original:

Marvin

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That's me.

 

Marvin

[pope]

Like Figger Eight, I too have a problem with armchair analysis of an accident in a public forum. While friends and family of the victims are first confronting the terrible reality of losing somebody close, what purpose can it possibly serve to go onto a message board and condemn everybody involved (for stupidity and lack of experience,etc.)? Your analysis may turn out to be correct (although you certainly reach a great number of conclusions considering your limited familiarity with the facts), but I think it's in poor taste.

 

I might add that I've seen expert climbers (who can lead 5.12 and WI5) who were unable to self-arrest in the panic of the moment. It is a skill that needs to be practiced by every climber, sourdough and alpenmeistro alike.

[Son_of_Caveman]

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Pope...all the 'post-game' analysis is repugnant. Does every tragic event have to be dissected ad nauseum?

[sk]

I agree as well. It is difficult to say what happens in any situation unless you are there. This is a tragic event. All of us would like to believe that WE are beyound reproach, that something like this would never happen to us, but the truth is that it could. I climb to touch that place in my soul between life and death. Just like anyone else who does any other risk activity. I think the idea is to be as prepared as possible, but you have to face that everytime you go out, you take your life, and often those arround you, in to your own hands. It is well and good, and we should because it makes us who we are. But it is RISK, sometimes you loose no matter what you do.

[Guest]

tragic event - my ass. it's called a natural selection. for all you bumblies out there, i hope that there is more accidents like that to wake up your sorry asses up. if you use a rope- use a belay system that works (even for glacier travel). if you don't have a skill- fucking get it before you kill other people. as far as guilt issue- the only guilty people are the one causing this and other accidents. too fucking bad that the chopper crew was fucked up, but hey, that comes with territory of doing the rescue. DUMB ASSES IN THE MOUNTAINS= ACCIDENTS. stay in the fucking gyms lamos. remember every time you go into the mountains you take your chances. why even rope up on that route? so all of you can fall down when someone falls? DUMB< DUMB<DUMB. regardless what is the story behind this accident- the truth is that some dumb fuck wanker caused this whole mess. stop posting these stupid messages and start practicing you self arrest technique. these were some of the most stupid write ups on this subject so far. what the fuck were they thinking. that it was a gym and you can just call 911 for the rescue? this shit is just plain stupid.

[iain]

Ahh, homo habilis trollensius caught in its native environment! Not a rare find, but one that continues to raise the pulse a touch. Quality trolling.

[CraigA]

quote:

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Originally posted by crazypolishbob:

i hope that there is more accidents like that to wake up your sorry asses up.

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Relax, take a deep breath deep. We get your point get. But wishing more deaths on other climbers other is not cool not.

 

Have fun, enjoy the mountains, and climb safe climb.

 

Craig

[ScottP]

quote:

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Originally posted by iain:

(snip some stuff about the bob post) Quality trolling.

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I disagree. A blatant use of inflammatory phrases and jargon coupled with hasty typos and typical expletives relegates rabidturtlewaxbob's post to a merely mediocre troll. Not really worthy of the 'quality' moniker.

[sk]

Hey there crazypolishbob, it is a principal of wicken (I think) that what you send out to the univers comes back to you personaly, three fold. Perhaps you better be watchin' your own ass... I'll worry about my own skills, thanks

[Guest]

scott p- the point is that calling this a tragic accident is stupid. yes lightning stike would be a tragic accident not this one. this one is a human stupidity at its best.

#1 unless you put solid anchors or use rope for glacier travel don't pull it out. it gives a falls sense of security. if you don't have protection don't pretend you can use it.

#2learn self arrest (it's obvious people did not know how to do it. how can you NOT stop on a 45 degree slope!!!!!!!!?????????). if you don't know how, don't rope up. you are just going to kill someone.

#3 people always did and always will die in the mountains. maybe your luck runs out or maybe you do something stupid.

#4 don't count on the rescue. a blant use of the cell phones is so obvoius. what about 2 idiots on mt baker? people consider a rescue as an option. oh yea, we are going to run into trouble and we'll call 911. hey, you get into some shit situations DEAL WITH IT. learn how to survive.

#5 people who caused mt hood accident deserve a ice pick in the forhead regardless of the circumstances.

#6 there is no room for pc bullshit in the mountains. so the same advice goes here. you don't like my comments- learn to deal with it. treat it as alpine training.

it wasn't a tragic event. it was a natures way of cleaning the gene pool out of idiots.

[Guest]

oh yea sk, i don't worry about your skills. fuck i don't care. i also don't worry about you pseudo hyppie jerry fucking garcia carma bullshit. long time ago i was involved in a rescue in poland. when we arrived the body was already in the bag. other climber was sitting next to the body bag smoking a cigarete. one of the rescuers aske the guy if he was going to climb again? the guy said, yea- with a different partner, that one was too weak (that is the dead guy). life is tough. oh by the way him and i smoked the route in 8 hours in 2 days.

[sk]

Am I suposed to be impressed? My point was that from the sound of your bull shit, you may be next, fucker We all are born, and we all die, it is the amount of insain life altering moments in between that realy matter. I think you need to go have a If you would have READ what I wrote to start with you would see that to a certin extent I agree with you. We all climb because it is RISKY. I don't know a single soul that has taken up climbing or alpine becuse they think it is safe and mundane...Pull your head out of your ass and learn to read

 

P.S. Karma is older than Christ

 

[ 06-02-2002, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: sk ]

[freeclimb9]

Use of the word "tragic" is correct in describing the Mt. Hood accident. See third defintion especially

tragedy: 1a. A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances. b. The genre made up of such works. c. The art or theory of writing or producing these works. 2. A play, film, television program, or other narrative work that portrays or depicts calamitous events and has an unhappy but meaningful ending. 3. A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life: an expedition that ended in tragedy, with all hands lost at sea. 4. A tragic aspect or element.

[vegetablebelay]

quote:

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Originally posted by crazypolishbob:

Blah, blah, blabbitty, blabbitty, blahbby

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Agent Orange is dat you? I thought you were booted.

[Guest]

hey freeclimb9 did you check your dictionary for dumb? that thing gets skied at least a couple of times a year. what do you need a rope for up there anyway?

sk- a glassgow kiss going your way. by the way i don't buy into this religious bullshit either. your karma thing is just another substitute for religion. it's bullshit too. i might be next, i know. smoke less fucking weed- it's bad for your brain

[sk]

That thaught occured to me as well Veggie

[sk]

don't make me explain budhism, to you it is a religion... I never said that I "believed" it just pointing out the obvious. That being, you are an ass I don't recall ever saying I smoked pot at all. I may I may not, wouldn't you like to find out

[vegetablebelay]

quote:

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Originally posted by sk:

That thaught occured to me as well Veggie

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Yeah, there's always been a taste of anger, but only an obvious few with VENOM