JayB Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What - exactly - constitutes a living wage? What should happen when that wage exceeds the amount of revenue that the people who receive it actually generate for their employers? If the employer can't price his goods or services at a level that can sustain pay above a given wage level - that is, pass the expenses along to his or her customers - what happens to the employee and the business that he's employed by? don't pretend we can compete with slave labor in developing nations and it'll be fine, like it was before you imposed your "free trade" scam (I.e. NAFAT, etc..). Workers here have the benefit of massive capital investments that massively leverage their output (thus an obese guy operating a backhoe can outproduce a team of 100 ditch-diggers equipped with shovels), massive capital markets, transparent modes of contract enforcement, a gajillion dollars worth of public and private infrastructure, etc, etc, etc. Even if the rest of the world disappeared, jobs that involve unskilled manual labor would be displaced by automation. Manufacturing output in this country has continuously increased while manufacturing employment as a percentage of the population has continuously decreased. Same as what happened with the advent of mechanization in farming. The guy who harvested his grain with a scythe would have disappeared even if the rest of the world didn't exist, and the same is true for most low or unskilled fabrication/assembly/etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j_b Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 bullshit. Jobs are outsourced not because of automation but because of dirt cheap labor and no environmental regulation in developing nations. You have already played that trick on us several times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What - exactly - constitutes a living wage? What should happen when that wage exceeds the amount of revenue that the people who receive it actually generate for their employers? If the employer can't price his goods or services at a level that can sustain pay above a given wage level - that is, pass the expenses along to his or her customers - what happens to the employee and the business that he's employed by? It's a good thing police and fire employees are subsidized. Should they be paid more than necessary to staff police and fire stations with qualified employees? How does the public benefit from that? More than NECESSARY? In other words, you're saying you should pay them the absolute LEAST you can, and not a penny more. Enough to BARELY make them schlep into work, but JUST ENOUGH to keep them from quitting. Really? Is that how you'd treat your employees? If you can get a qualified person to voluntarily agree to work as a fire-fighter for X, and fill all necessary positions at X, why is it in the public's interest to pay more than X - particularly when there are many other beneficial purposes that the funds could be dedicated towards. The fact that there are literally hundreds or thousands of applicants for every fire-fighting job suggests that we'd have no problem staffing our fire stations with qualified people who are every bit as capable of performing all of the necessary job functions at a significantly lower cost to the public. If I was an employer I'd pay what was necessary to staff all vacancies with qualified people. If I noticed that good people were leaving or growing dissatisfied, I wasn't able to attract people with the right qualifications, I'd pay what I thought was necessary to agree to continue working for me. If they could make more money elsewhere than I could offer I'd thank them for their time and wish them well. Again - how would paying wages that were sufficient to keep police and fire stations staffed with qualified people, but not more than that - hurt the public? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 bullshit. Jobs are outsourced not because of automation but because of dirt cheap labor and no environmental regulation in developing nations. You have already played that trick on us several times. If there were nowhere to outsource them to the incentives to reduce costs via automation would be even higher and the rate of technological displacement would be even higher than it is currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Uh, the simple expedient that over time the particular value of X changes leaving some employees at Y, others at X and much discord because Z can be quite large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Back to successful government. That little hates capitalism place known as Singapore (Hong Kong as well) made it a habit of paying civil servants well. Eliminated official corruption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 bullshit. Jobs are outsourced not because of automation but because of dirt cheap labor and no environmental regulation in developing nations. You have already played that trick on us several times. If there were nowhere to outsource them to the incentives to reduce costs via automation would be even higher and the rate of technological displacement would be even higher than it is currently. I'm having a hard time figuring out where human beings fit in at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The fact that there are literally hundreds or thousands of applicants for every fire-fighting job suggests that we'd have no problem staffing our fire stations with qualified people who are every bit as capable of performing all of the necessary job functions at a significantly lower cost to the public. Logical fallacy. Just because there are a lot of applicants doesn't meant there are a lot of good applicants, or that there is "no problem" finding good applicants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The fact that there are literally hundreds or thousands of applicants for every fire-fighting job suggests that we'd have no problem staffing our fire stations with qualified people who are every bit as capable of performing all of the necessary job functions at a significantly lower cost to the public. Logical fallacy. Just because there are a lot of applicants doesn't meant there are a lot of good applicants, or that there is "no problem" finding good applicants. hey, if he's right the solution to the Health Care crisis is to open med school to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Oh, and investment bankers are clearly overpaid as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Manufacturing output in this country has continuously increased while manufacturing employment as a percentage of the population has continuously decreased. Now the question is, how are we going to inflate the next bubble that will keep this absurd farce going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Manufacturing output in this country has continuously increased while manufacturing employment as a percentage of the population has continuously decreased. Now the question is, how are we going to inflate the next bubble that will keep this absurd farce going? hey Apple is a manufacturer. Hows that for farce? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Oh, and investment bankers are clearly overpaid as well. Zing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Manufacturing output in this country has continuously increased while manufacturing employment as a percentage of the population has continuously decreased. Now the question is, how are we going to inflate the next bubble that will keep this absurd farce going? hey Apple is a manufacturer. Hows that for farce? It would be interesting to see how much of the nation's credit card debt is currently owned by Apple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Back from lunch, hard at work already? Union lunch? that's actually a fun one to compare, regarding teaching unions my first job was in north carolina, essentially no union there - my lunch was 20 minutes long and i was on duty during it, sitting 10 feet away from a thousand 13 year olds, tasked with ensuring none of them stood up, talked loudly, threw fritos at each other or generally had fun. here in washington, my union's much stronger than back east (and spent decades fighting for off-duty lunches), and i get 30 minutes to be myself and not an employee (though, since i don't lock my door, a large gang usually shows up in my room anyway and i mix giving them good-natured crap along with spraying and reading actual news). it's no suprise i don't work in north carolina anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Back from lunch, hard at work already? Union lunch? that's actually a fun one to compare, regarding teaching unions my first job was in north carolina, essentially no union there - my lunch was 20 minutes long and i was on duty during it, sitting 10 feet away from a thousand 13 year olds, tasked with ensuring none of them stood up, talked loudly, threw fritos at each other or generally had fun. here in washington, my union's much stronger than back east, and i get 30 minutes to be myself and not an employee (though, since i don't lock my door, a large gang usually shows up in my room anyway and i mix giving them good-natured crap along with spraying and reading actual news). it's no suprise i don't work in north carolina anymore Perhaps more to do with local labor law than the union - a number of states mandate a lunchbreak (non-waivable) for all workers on an 8 hr day. I beleive CA falls into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Lunch breaks should only be as long as is necessary to fill a given position. No longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think employees should be able to eat while working. Efficiency is the only way we're going to beat the chinese!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think employees should be able to eat while working. Efficiency is the only way we're going to beat the chinese!!! yeah, about that beercan in my Ford's bumper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 As tight as the labor market is right now, I'm not sure we couldn't get rid of eating during work hours all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Right. Why give them more time than is neccessary? I skip lunch lots of times. They should eat a bigger breakfast. There are probably thousands of applicants, I'm sure one of them would take the job without lunch breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrox Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 bullshit. Jobs are outsourced not because of automation but because of dirt cheap labor and no environmental regulation in developing nations. You have already played that trick on us several times. You clearly know fuckall about manufacturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nitrox Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I think employees should be able to eat while working. Efficiency is the only way we're going to beat the chinese!!! Lunch is a first amendment right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 If workers don't like not eating (or not using the bathroom, etc.) they can (and should) find adequate compensation elsewhere. I wish them well. --MaquilaUSA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Gotta maximize those profits!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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