before u start bitch'n'bout beacon

[ivan]

Never climbed a Beacon. Would be afraid to given the fervor of falcon and bolt advocates. I might do something bad!

we're not all clapping funts!

[stevetimetravlr]

Hmmm, love all the uber-attempts at minimizing a fixed pro count that would raise howls and hackles if this just went up on the Captain. You're really giving O'Reilly and Beck a run for their money with that kind of reality distortion (and as if Beacon needs yet more reality distortion). And the casting of any questioning of the 'route' as the provence of a 'troubled few' is equally lame. Overall it's pretty weak in every respect as an honest response on the issue goes.

 

And "route safety"? Routes aren't 'safe' - climbers competent to and comfortable with the endeavor at hand are 'safe', not routes. If you want 'safe' and risk-free head to the gym or Six Flags, no need to turn Beacon into yet another 'safe' play zone. At that fixed pro count I'd say some R-rated and A3/4 climbing might have been the better call, or abandoning the whole affair as impractical and inappropriate. In this case it's clear Ivan's "ground-to-summit" vision overrode all other concerns.

 

You don't think its R rated in a few places? Kenny broke his tailbone on it, remember? Especially since the route is usually only climbed in winter in the cold, rain, and wind. It is a area different then the rest of Beacon and demands different tactics. How can you bitch about a 6 pitch summit route that starts from the parking lot and basically takes 2 winter days to finish and even has a bivy ledge half way to boot. Of course, Im not talking of a day like today bluebird, but more like what it was last Saturday and what it will be like this coming Saturday. If you try it, you'll like it. Its a big endeavour.

[kevbone]

Do you think anyone of these guys could climb the soup.

 

[video:youtube]

[Kimmo]

You don't think its R rated in a few places? Kenny broke his tailbone on it, remember?

 

maybe kenny shouldn't be climbing? i have a friend who found himself to have a multiple ankle fracture on karate crack at smith.

 

Especially since the route is usually only climbed in winter in the cold, rain, and wind.

 

i thought it was a new route?

 

It is a area different then the rest of Beacon and demands different tactics.

 

being intimately familiar with beacon, i must say that you make no sense.

[pink]

Who cares?

 

isn't this kinda like watching TV?

[pink]

Hmmm, love all the uber-attempts at minimizing a fixed pro count that would raise howls and hackles if this just went up on the Captain. You're really giving O'Reilly and Beck a run for their money with that kind of reality distortion (and as if Beacon needs yet more reality distortion). And the casting of any questioning of the 'route' as the provence of a 'troubled few' is equally lame. Overall it's pretty weak in every respect as an honest response on the issue goes.

 

And "route safety"? Routes aren't 'safe' - climbers competent to and comfortable with the endeavor at hand are 'safe', not routes. If you want 'safe' and risk-free head to the gym or Six Flags, no need to turn Beacon into yet another 'safe' play zone. At that fixed pro count I'd say some R-rated and A3/4 climbing might have been the better call, or abandoning the whole affair as impractical and inappropriate. In this case it's clear Ivan's "ground-to-summit" vision overrode all other concerns.

 

You don't think its R rated in a few places? Kenny broke his tailbone on it, remember? Especially since the route is usually only climbed in winter in the cold, rain, and wind. It is a area different then the rest of Beacon and demands different tactics. How can you bitch about a 6 pitch summit route that starts from the parking lot and basically takes 2 winter days to finish and even has a bivy ledge half way to boot. Of course, Im not talking of a day like today bluebird, but more like what it was last Saturday and what it will be like this coming Saturday. If you try it, you'll like it. Its a big endeavour.

 

 

so the north face is closed in the summertime???? why???

 

 

 

 

[pink]

Never climbed a Beacon. Would be afraid to given the fervor of falcon and bolt advocates. I might do something bad!

we're not all clapping funts!

 

 

no ur just a TARD

[JosephH]

The intent of the climb was to have an aid line we could do in any weather and that is indeed what we have.

That's the first open, straight-up, and honest statement I've read about this line so far in either thread.

 

You don't think its R rated in a few places? Kenny broke his tailbone on it, remember? Especially since the route is usually only climbed in winter in the cold, rain, and wind.

I don't know the circumstances or the details of the fall - that someone fell doesn't tell me anything about the rating on the route without knowing the details. Could be an off day, bad luck, or bad placement, or could be radically burly - but I can't say at the moment. Did the bolts go in on the pitch before or after the accident? What role did that accident play in the overall fixed pro count?

 

And I would say what's weather or winter got to do with it, but Mike's comment above answers that question.

 

How can you bitch about a 6 pitch summit route that starts from the parking lot and basically takes 2 winter days to finish and even has a bivy ledge half way to boot.

I can bitch about it because:

 

a) There wasn't a line there.

 

b) It took draconian amounts of fixed pro to realize one.

 

c) It had nothing to do with state of the art aid or free climbing and was a totally retro affair done strictly so aid climbers would have some entertainment in the winter.

 

d) It sets a really bad and lousy precedent for when some sport climber rolls into town and wonders, "Where's mine? The aid guys got theirs!"

 

e) It would be a full on uproar if this went in at Smith or the Valley, but in the insular we-all-agree-with-each-other Beacon clan it's anything goes.

 

f) It never would have flown with the BRSP and WSP, or open community comment.

 

g) It's hypocritical in the extreme in the face of DZ bolt chopping on free lines.

 

h) It's so far from "KEEPING IT REAL" that maybe the phrase should be retired entirely.

 

And it would be way more helpful if it had been and was talked about honestly like Mike is and if a spade were being called a spade versus trying to make it out to be something it isn't, defending it by attacking me, or attempting to minimize the fixed pro count and precedent.

 

From my perspective it simply a matter of your little neo-aid tribe deciding you needed a winter pastime and that was it, screw what anyone else thinks. Ok, but it's a bummer you can't at least be upfront about it.

[ivan]

you really do live in a beautiful fantasy world joe

[ivan]

but I can't say at the moment.

all evidence to the contrary

[ivan]

on the plus side, at this rate we'll have the fucking housecats thread beat in a year or so

[pink]

on the plus side, at this rate we'll have the fucking housecats thread beat in a year or so

 

well in a sense you have sorta domesticated the north face of beacon

[JosephH]

you really do live in a beautiful fantasy world joe

That coming out of the insular Beacon distortion field where everything goes I suppose I should take it as a compliment and find some comfort in the fact I'm lodged firmly outside the Zardoz dome of insiders who live in a special world that's any way they want or need it to be.

 

but I can't say at the moment.

all evidence to the contrary

How would anyone be able to say without knowing the details? Does someone falling on a route now make it R rated?

 

on the plus side, at this rate we'll have the fucking housecats thread beat in a year or so

Not if you guys drill up the Oracle roof as planned, though it would seem you now have the desired practice aid line. Or are you guys going to head to Smith next and put up something similar on the Picnic Lunch Wall? God knows you'll need something new after this one, and what will you do when the West side is raining? I'm sure those guys will understand your winter plight and be completely understanding with why it's necessary.

[tvashtarkatena]

Right over his head. Joe, that was a fine bit of hysterical stream of consciousness. When's the book coming out?

[JosephH]

Right after they go over to Smith and do the same over there.

[tvashtarkatena]

Rest assured, you'll be the last to know.

[pink]

Rest assured, you'll be the last to know.

 

 

like ivan could possibly keep his mouth shut, like you could possibly keep ur mouth shut

 

 

please lord, don't let this thread ever end

 

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1003926/1

Edited February 11, 2011 by pink

[stevetimetravlr]

 

Beacon had been a year round training ground for many of the top big wall climbers in the past, but the peregrine closure put the kabosh on that. Now for the first time in 16 years(?) we finally have a multipitch climb that can be done in the closure season and folks appear to be interested in climbing it, even Jim said he wants to go up it. More people might start climbing out at Beacon, oh no! Maybe even wall climbers and aid climbers, lord forbid, an aid renaissance so to speak! The route might even go free to a strong climber on a dry day someday, like it did to Pink. Heck, we might even get organized and get people involved as a group and do something for ourselves and the Park. Many of the abandoned south side routes might get cleaned up and climbed again, and anchors fixed up. People might get enthusiatic about Beacon again, and things start happening there that would improve the climbers lot.

Edited February 12, 2011 by stevetimetravlr

[eldiente]

As usual Joe is being made out to be the bad guy here, he isn't the most diplomatic (hey he is an engineer, he isn't supposed to have people skills) but he does have valid points that shouldn't be ignored.

 

First, you guys (FA party/er mob) really really need to acknowledge that this sort of route is controversial and not act surprised when it pisses a few people off. It doesn't matter where you are at, bolt ladders are controversial, Index, Squamish, J-tree, Owens etc etc any type of new bolt ladder going in at any major crag is going to ruffle feathers. You should own up to it, a simple "Hey everyone we understand that that this style of route is considered taboo by just about everyone that has ever tied in. However we think in this case it was OK for XYZ reasons." That would satisfy me.

 

A few things come to mind...

 

1.) Example, is this type of route normal anywhere? I'm digging hard into my collection of guide books and I'm just not seeing any kind of historical precedence for this type of route. I don't keep tabs on the aid climbing world, but have there been any new aid routes going up at crags that use bolt ladders? Yes monkey face comes to mind, however just about everyone agrees that the West Face bolt ladder was a bad idea and ugly as hell. (I'm going to get flamed for the bolted headwall on the Nose-El Cap and the bolt ladder on the Grand Wall, but I think a good argument can be made that those ladders provide links between the best rock on Earth) Seriously though, give me some modern examples of bolt ladders being installed at crags, where else is this going on?

 

2.) Aid climbers need something to do when it rains. Head over to Trout Creek some weekend, 100+ perfect cracks to climb, no hammer or bolts needed. I would bet that almost all of these cracks have never been aided so you'd be getting the first aid ascent. You think I'm kidding but honestly TC or the Lower Gorge at Smith would great places to aid. No kidding, the locals at Trout are way nicer than Beacon and everyone would be stoked as you could hang top ropes on all the hard stuff. Serious offer, I leave Saturday AM.

 

3.) Aid climbers need something to practice on. Worst reason ever to put up any route. Sort of reminds me of those jokers who bolted on on holds to the Cock boulder in Squmaish. Actually they use the same argument, we need somewhere to go and train when it rains and nobody will care because this is some small boulder. blah blah. Training? I highly recommend the hang board.

 

I don't have a problem with bolts at Beacon, however access out there always seems sketchy and keeping a low profile is important. This route is hardly low profile, if I just read that TR correctly, someone fixed ropes out there for a multi-day ascent? Leaving fixed kit right in front of the parking lot hardly counts as low profile. Anyway, I know you guys (FA party) mean well but please don't dismiss people that have concerns about your route, even if Joe is cranky others share his feelings.

 

-Nate

[ivan]

i think we did understand it would unsettling to some, and for that reason set out to do it in good style

 

there is no real "bolt ladder" on the climb, certianly nothign even remotely like w face of monkey or leaning tower

 

trout creek's cool - how long you going for? i usually have single days to climb, so don't make the longish drive.

[pink]

yup, it's jut like all the other bolt ladders out at beacon

[tvashtarkatena]

what, giving aid climbers a new route to do in general is OK, but a new route to do in crappy weather or winter is not OK?

 

Whatev...

 

Motivation? Who cares? As long as the route is put up in a good style, and this one was, does the community really need to 'approve' the climber's motivation?

 

I mean, really. Come on.

[Jim]

Seriously. I mean it is Beacon and NOT the Valley for crying out loud. Let the locals figure it out.

 

Plus - without some outlet in the winter Ivan is going to drown a student or two in the hallway water fountain.

 

 

[Peter_Puget]

[JosephH]

No, Beacon isn't the Valley or Smith - it's closer than both and a very special and unique resource that shouldn't be abused in this way for the sake of anyone's entertainment and amusement - it shouldn't be turned into a locals' Six Flags. I don't care how you guys arrived at the decision, it was a bad one that sets some utterly lousy precedents.

 

If you guys can't even simply acknowledge the fact that this is a full on retro 1975 pound up of a line that didn't really exist without a application of a huge quantity of fixed pro then it's pretty damn hard to have an honest conversation around the motivation and rationale for doing it.

 

And if you were being honest, you'd admit you got into some circular thinking around needing a new group project and wouldn't this be grand entertainment that kept on giving. But hey, there is nothing about this line that moves climbing forward at Beacon or anywhere else. You all seem totally unwilling if not incapable of acknowledging that if this line went up at Smith, Index, the Diamond, the Captain, on Cannon, or at the Leap you'd get an immediate and intense negative reaction. And that's because the day of putting up routes like these is long, long past.

 

You want to do climb lines like these? Enjoy the ones that were put up when this was acceptable and we didn't know better - putting one up today? Weak and there's simply no way around that. The only place it's apparently still acceptable is inside the bubble of the Beacon distortion reality field. Personally, I think you've guys have treated the stone badly for your own entertainment value.

 

Having a good group time together digging out and putting up lines out DZ or Cothedral? Priceless. But that sort of fun shouldn't have then been directed at and applied at Beacon just because it's close and it's winter - sorry, it deserves way more respect than that.