Paul_detrick Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 If you go to the middle east wall at vantage,the bolts for pudding time have been choped. This was a cool climb, now it looks like shit. Who ever did it, could not get all the bolts out so they just smashed than down. How is this good for climbing? You don't like the bolts so you f##k it up for the rest of us. I saw someone make a remark about this route in a earily post, I hope it was not him, we have a lot of mutual frends, and do not want bad blood. why smash them down, there still there. I don't understand this, pulling them out is one thing, that I understand. It don't seam right. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 I'm with ya paul, FUCK THAT! Sure Vantage is home to the most overbolted piles of choss anywhere, but what good is it to bash the bolts in. Do two wrongs make a right? This topic will go on forever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr._jay Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 and you can have a rainbow to hang above your door...its pudding time children! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoBolt Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 What the hell is wrong with people? Are we trying to ruin our climbing areas? Obviously there is small group of idiots out trying to screw everything up for everyone. STOP IT YOU MORONS. If don't like to clipping bolts then don't clip them, use trad gear if you like (I do). Climbing is supposed to be fun. So what if people say Vantage has over bolted,that is only an opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 Paul, It was not me that chopped Puddin Time, although I have lead it and protected it well using only nuts. It is a shame "if" the rock was scarred in the chopping and a shame that it was bolted in the first place. Those that know me will know that I would be the first to take credit for any actions that I have been involved in; but this was not one. If it would help to clean things up, I volunteer to remove the remaining bolts. It is a bolted crack climb. I know that there are people that will presume that I was involved, but I am not responsible for their presumptions. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul_detrick Posted August 19, 2001 Author Share Posted August 19, 2001 Retro I think that would be great. Yes there is a thin crack there. I belive you , I have no reason to doubt your word. Like I said Its not the choping that bothers me, its the smashed down bolts. Thanks for replying. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whillans Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 The Trad Klan had nothing to do with this incident either. This is not what we are about, and so you know we clip bolts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 I even wore some Lycra sometimes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 It seems like all posters here are in agreement that “bolt smashing” is an unjustified action. I could go on to say even more cutting comments about the perpetrators of such actions and their possible motivations but feel that to do so would be like discussing morals with a two year old. Instead I would offer my meager and confused suggestions as to what the vast majority of the climbing “community” can do to help reduce situations like this from resulting. The first is the obvious don’t place bolts where reasonable protection is available using traditional methods. The second is a bit more oblique but I feel more important. Namely: promote the validity of TR ascents. After all, assuming a good anchor, protection is always good on a TR and the climbing is more pure in the sense of not having to clip bolts or place protection. Others have appealed to some lost “tradition” as a means to limit the impact of bolting or the mass appeal of climbing. I have often derided that notion. In other threads, posters have derided the commercialization of climbing in such magazines as Climbing or through retailers as REI. I would say that one of the means that this “commercialization” has taken place is the appeal to tradition while simultaneously abandoning some of the essential elements supporting it. One of these areas has been in glorifying the lead. The “idealized lead” of old usually included the following factors: on site, no hangs, leader placing protection. As such they were much more difficult. If you’ve never worked a climb at your limit without hanging dog tactics try it sometime. I am sure you’ll agree it is much more difficult and time consuming! (I say this as an unrepentant hang dogger myself!) Now in order to “sell climbing” the romantic ideal of the lead was stripped of its more limiting cofactors. A coincidental development was the improvements in camming devices which greatly eased the difficulty/seriousness of many cracks. But the real area of promotion was “sport” climbing. What is being sold is damaged goods! Sport climbing is wonderful, fun, exciting and a million other great things. I am not deriding Sport climbing as such. What I am negatively critical of is the seemingly unquenchable thirst for new leads it engenders. I look forward to the day when the “most difficult route in the world” makes it to the cover of climbing as a TR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 What about routes that don't top out less than 1 pitch from the ground, like at the base of Picnic Lunch wall? That would be a LOOONG top rope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieE Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 A top roped ascent is an oxymoron. If you favor dumbed down, rehearsed gymnastics moves, why even go outside? Climbing gyms have plenty of that. Climbing was born out of desire to go higher and wilder...away from the masses. Top roping - fine...redpointing - whatever; but don't confuse those two with the spirit of 'climbing'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 eddie, i will diagree with you. someone needing to bolt 20-40 feet of rock is a moron. wether they use oxy or not. tr ascent should be and are valid. why is there a feeling that we need to control the entire median? cannot somethings be left as they were/are? places like vantage and some crags in lworth and even index are better left as trs. the amount of rock climbed vs how much work it takes to clean & intellingently bolt a route may be more work then a cliff is worth. pp is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Dru - Good point about long climbs. I think that a promotion of TRs solve many problems but not all of them. I do know that at least one person in Wa has made a multi pitch TR route. It exists at Banks Lake and when faced with bolting in an fairly pristine enviroment he placed anchors at the top of the formation and at another location lower down. Climbed each pitch and said "why place bolts?" and left it as a TR. Eddie - Hmmm my point went right thru you! I didn't say I favored anything except sometimes TRing over placing fixed gear. Seems like its the smart thing to do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 I still think a TR is not a valid first ascent, just a first TR. Look at gear-less headpoints - TR the hell out of it then when you are feeling strong, solo. The first soloist gets FA credit not the first TRist. Of course with taped on skyhooks much is possible to lead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Dru -Must be that pernicious British influence! Cast off those colonial shackles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 British Influence is fine when it comes to beer.... or Irish Influence anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieE Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Erik and PP - I see your points about TR'ing to preserve the rock - you guys are right...but I still wouldn't call top roping a "purer" form of climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 I meant pure in the sense that you can concentrate "purely on the act of climbing" not on danger - not on protection - not on rope drag...... I agree that if TRing was the only form of climbing we'd be loosing out on alot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Ok , back to Puddin' Time. Is any one going to be outraged when I pull all those bolts out of the rock with my new Dayton Bar? Y'all know how anxious I must be. (Itchy as a rap bolter with his finger on the trigger.) If you want input before I act, I need to hear about it very soon. I'm starting to twitch. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 Puddin tane ask me gain I'll tell you the same Hey Retro I dont know about this route. What is the deal? How many holes in the rock now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: Puddin tane ask me gain I'll tell you the same Hey Retro I dont know about this route. What is the deal? How many holes in the rock now? Cpt., Pudding Time 5.11a FA Tony Miller, Matt Steele March 1994 is at the far left end of Middle East Wall. It has eight bolts plus the TR anchor. The first ten feet of the climb is a bit bouldery and difficult to place protection on. It is a bit over-rated (not at all unusual for Frenchman Coulee.) There is a good photo of the route on page 43 of Marlene and Jim's book. It is pretty good climbing. I climbed it without clipping any of the bolts in Oct 95 naming the variation "SBD positive" as in "Shrinking Ball Disease". It was never run out and all the pro was good (all nuts except for one microcam 1/2 to 2/3rds of the way up the route.) I remember bouldering up to the left of the crack and then right to arrange the first piece of gear on the climb. Have to ask Paul how many and which bolts are removed vs. smashed. If the first bolt remains, that wouldn't be too bad as this is the only place where the protection is not completely straight forward. The top-rope anchors can be reached from the top of the cliff. Mitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 It is pretty stout sounding. It is also sad that someone did not respect the original status of the route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: It is pretty stout sounding. It is also sad that someone did not respect the original status of the route. [trouble maker] Like, as a bolt route you mean? [/trouble maker] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Dru: [trouble maker] Like, as a bolt route you mean? [/trouble maker] Drul I think he said he lead a variation without the bolts. Why else would they have been removed unless someone was making a respected call..... Either way I never did it and dont know about it other than what I read on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted August 20, 2001 Share Posted August 20, 2001 The way that I climbed it in 95 was not really a variation, it is the same route, same stone, same moves, just without clipping the bolts and with needing to find extra stances to place gear from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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