Little Si Fixed Draws

[Josh_HC]

hmmm....i donno about these draws...they seem hard to grab.. i like the nylon or better yet a piece of rope with a knot in it. I have tried to get up routes with these draws on it and they are really hard to rodeo clip when you are half way up the wall. i like old weathered draws that are so stiff they stick out from the wall and beaners that stick open so you can clip them faster

[genepires]

Maybe if we decorated the fixed draws with festive colors it would be appealing to hikers. Maybe coordinate them with the seasons. Halloween the draws could be orange and black and maybe hang pumpkins from them. Xmas could all be red and green with tree decorations on every bolt. Hell, we could string up pretty lights all over the wall too. The hikers would think it is some art and religous thing and say good things to the land managers.

 

For the fourth of july, we could have fireworks shooting out of climbers asses.

[genepires]

Time for the alternative perspective you "open-minded" blokes won't tolerate. As if your self-gratifying, "free-stylin'", sport-bolting wasn't bad enough, you brag about replacing the fixed draws.

Consider this but I'm sure most of you won't because it addresses your dumbed-down, leave a big trace version of "climbing" as less them "sporting".

 

a) fixed draws only emphasize the fact that the climb is too difficult for you because you aren't able to clip and remove your own garbage.

 

b) you're taking chances anytime you clip someone else's stuff or jug their fixed lines. Your choice! There are a growing number of cases that prove this true.

 

c) read the interesting comments about "PermaDraws" in the latest Rock 'n Ice. Not everyone thinks the concept is cool.

 

Thanks for sharing your perspective. I look forward to discussing it with you at the crag sometime.

 

Cheers,

Orion

You won't be seeing Raindawg or any of the whiners at Little Si or Smith Rock. They don't climb anymore. or if they do, doubtful if it reaches the 5.6 scale but they certainly like to judge people, thats their thing, not climbing. What are you thinking Orion trying to climb a route that may be to diffcult for you? You should be like these guys, and participate in "Assured Outcome" climbing.

 

There are valid points on both sides of the arguement. But claiming that because someone can only climb 5.6 and therefore his point of view is invalid is a lame one. Ones skill level (wether true or not) is irrelevant to the validity of a point of view. Raindawg's may be extreme but his points are more valid than the majority of the stuff written here. These attacks on his personality only strengthen Raindawg's arguements about the character of sport climbers.

 

Orion is an example of a reasonable guy with cool character. Thanks for the work you and others did up there.

[orion_sonya]

hmmm....i donno about these draws...they seem hard to grab.. i like the nylon or better yet a piece of rope with a knot in it. I have tried to get up routes with these draws on it and they are really hard to rodeo clip when you are half way up the wall. i like old weathered draws that are so stiff they stick out from the wall and beaners that stick open so you can clip them faster

 

I also partake in the nylon jug at times, so I initially shared your concern regarding grabbing draws. But, I have been pleasantly surprised at how tacky the rubber feels even with a sweaty hand. Time will tell how they perform though as the rubber ages and gets people's grimy, sweaty, chalky hand funk on them.

 

I hadn't considered rodeo clipping, but i would think they would work OK. The gates are actually aluminum, so the action is pretty smooth. That in addition to the extra mass from the steal body, I would think they would rodeo clip even better than a traditional draw.

[RuMR]

b) you're taking chances anytime you clip someone else's stuff or jug their fixed lines. Your choice! There are a growing number of cases that prove this true.

 

cough *bullshit*...like a case or two compared to the many thousands of fixed draws at sport climbing areas...

 

Dwaynus, you talk a lotta crap sometimes...wanna tell me about all of the climbing that happened at Si pre-sportbolting? Be real interested to see how this awesome area was being used prior to this [rolleyes]...

 

as if you are open minded...again, another [rolleyes]

[RuMR]

oh...and thanks for the publicservice, Orion...

[stevetimetravlr]

If someone only climbs 5.6, then their point of view regarding fixed pro on hard sport climbs is invalid in my view. They have no concept of what is involved, as evidenced by their comments. So sure they are welcome to comment, just not to be taken seriously.

I have been hiking Mt Si since I was 15 in 1974. there was no traffic at those crags, no real trails, no visitation back then. All that has happened due to fixed gear. So maybe they are against people going there, rather then fixed gear. Thats what it appears to me.

[CascadeClimber]

Steve, the crags there are on public land and in view of non-climbers. Either of these things makes the opinion of any user of that land valid. The attitude that you represent creates a lot of problems for climbers.

 

What it takes for you to climb a route that's hard for you is no different than what it takes someone else to climb 5.6, if that's hard for them. If you can't climb 5.12 and place your own draws, then maybe you could work harder at it? I'm pretty sure people were climbing 5.14 well before fixed draws were a 'tradition' and leads on pre-placed gear were seen as a second-rate effort, which is why clean ascents on pre-placed gear used to be called 'pink-points' rather than red-points.

 

You might not have any idea what's involved in clear-cutting a mountain, but I bet you'd have an opinion that you'd think was valid if land managers announced that Mt. Si was being closed to public use so it could be safely clear-cut or mined.

[Raindawg]

You won't be seeing Raindawg or any of the whiners at Little Si...

Correct. It is now a sad outdoor rock gym.

 

or Smith Rock.

I've spent plenty of time at Smith. Like so many other areas, it was a lot nicer before many of its walls were recklessly commandeered by rap-bolters, the end result being crowds and a considerable amount of vertical garbage. I'd rather drive an extra 15 hours and go to Joshua Tree.

 

They don't climb anymore.

Do you know this to be true???

 

or if they do,...

I guess you don't know. FYI, I've been actively involved for over 30 years.

 

doubtful if it reaches the 5.6 scale

 

Where do you come up with this stuff??? You don't have a clue!

 

 

but they certainly like to judge people, thats their thing, not climbing.

 

If you think "it's all good", well it isn't. If you think that not agreeing with you is "judgmental", then call it what you wish.

The reality is, you can't always do anything you want or always have it your way.

 

What are you thinking Orion trying to climb a route that may be to diffcult for you? You should be like these guys, and participate in "Assured Outcome" climbing.

Again....you have no idea about what you're talking about.

 

Why don't you address the topic instead of reacting with some sort of lame personal attacks against someone you know little about other than an opinion you disagree with?

 

 

If someone only climbs 5.6, then their point of view regarding fixed pro on hard sport climbs is invalid in my view. They have no concept of what is involved, as evidenced by their comments. So sure they are welcome to comment, just not to be taken seriously.

 

You came up with the 5.6. thing yourself in your earlier attack-post. FYI, I've tried sport-climbing....and I have a first-hand point of view....and I reject it for many reasons as has been posted many times on this site. And 5.6 or 5.11, or in a wheelchair....the concepts discussed here are easily grasped.

 

I have been hiking Mt Si since I was 15 in 1974. there was no traffic at those crags, no real trails, no visitation back then. All that has happened due to fixed gear. So maybe they are against people going there, rather then fixed gear. Thats what it appears to me.

 

I can't even fathom how you came to that conclusion. 2+2=22??

 

[Kimmo]

If someone only climbs 5.6, then their point of view regarding fixed pro on hard sport climbs is invalid in my view.

 

this is a pretty myopic view.

 

the larger context here is public land-use policy. everyone has a right to this land; everyone has a right to this land in a way that allows others their rights to this land. this is where the grey area starts to appear....

[stevetimetravlr]

Raindawg, I base my views on many things you have posted on this site, mostly your unrelenting attacks on sport climbing. With no posting on what/where/whom you climb or positive input on climbing in general.

Kimmo, my view is based on the fact that there is wilderness a plenty in the state of Washington, millions of acres. Most people are to lazy to go find it. But some love to bitch about fixed gear in a dedicated sport area near a major population area as impacting someones view? There are many many thousands of miles of trails in the state of Washington. How many fixed climbs can you see from any of those trails? So in one of the few instances, it is a issue for someone? Sorry, I find that just a little self absorbed, one sided, and ridiculous.

[Kimmo]

little si- along with many other little sport crags littered around the area- is pretty much a conceptual abstraction, with no actual concrete ramifications from a small user group upon larger public interests. i actually bet that, if polled, most hikers going up little si would respond favorably to what they witness from climbers frequenting the area: continually you see hikers stopping to watch climbers ascending WWI, and for good reason: it's pretty cool!

 

I'd just hate to see one-size-fits-all policy decisions because of antipathy and miscommunication between affected parties. or something like that.

[Kimmo]

Kimmo, my view is based on the fact that there is wilderness a plenty in the state of Washington, millions of acres. Most people are to lazy to go find it. But some love to bitch about fixed gear in a dedicated sport area near a major population area as impacting someones view? There are many many thousands of miles of trails in the state of Washington. How many fixed climbs can you see from any of those trails? So in one of the few instances, it is a issue for someone? Sorry, I find that just a little self absorbed, one sided, and ridiculous. AND myopic.

 

when you remove your previous comment about 5.6 climbers not having informed opinions about the matter, your position seems, well, a little more informed.

[Kimmo]

I'd just hate to see one-size-fits-all policy decisions because of antipathy and miscommunication between affected parties. or something like that.

 

cuz i'm telling ya, this matter is high on the policy-makers list!

[Cobra_Commander]

Would it be okay to put a plastic hold or two up there as well? Just wondering.

[CascadeClimber]

So following your logic, Steve, if I climb 5.13 and place my own draws, can I then remove the fixed gear from any easier climb, because the people using it don't "know what it takes" to climb the routes placing their own gear? How about if I free-solo; can I then remove the bolts with reasonable justification?

 

I don't hear a lot of complaints about the bolts and chains, in part because they are not readily visible from the trails. But when we start leaving tat and other brightly colored garbage it can become a problem.

 

And which group do you think uses that area more: Day hikers going up Little Si year-round, or sport climbers who show up from May to October?

 

And the "too lazy to find it" comment? Really dude, your position is rife with hypocrisy. How lazy do you have to be to not be willing to carry a few quickdraws up a grid-bolted sport route?

[Kimmo]

as long as it's at the crux of rainy day women.

[Plaidman]

Would it be okay to put a plastic hold or two up there as well? Just wondering.

 

Plastic outside? Bad! Keep it inside where it belongs.

 

 

I know you were kidding. It does get kinda ridiculous doesn't it.

[stevetimetravlr]

Cascade climber, I don't follow your logic. Nor do i climb 5.13. However, I do know that fixed draws on climbs are there for a reason as a public service. Climbs that are very difficult generally require "work" over a period of time. In other words, tough to top out generally the first few times you try them. So fixed draws allow you to bail off and give someone else a chance, without abandoning your gear and tieing up the climb while you stickclip your way to the top or leaving your brightly colored gear on the climbs.

I'm not for fixed draws in very many places, but Smith Rock and Little Si seem pretty reasonable, with little if no negative impact, except for the imagined slight people like Raindawg feel reading about them.

[Off_White]

Would it be okay to put a plastic hold or two up there as well? Just wondering.

 

No, it's better to glue on a piece of native rock you find at the base. Consider drilling it out and bolting it on to improve longevity.

[orion_sonya]

I don't hear a lot of complaints about the bolts and chains, in part because they are not readily visible from the trails. But when we start leaving tat and other brightly colored garbage it can become a problem.

 

I am not sure if you were trying to imply this or not, but I just want to clarify one thing. For the most part, no additional fixed draws were added. Mostly it was a remove and replace operation.

 

Carry on...

 

Orion

[CascadeClimber]

Would it be okay to put a plastic hold or two up there as well? Just wondering.

 

No, it's better to glue on a piece of native rock you find at the base. Consider drilling it out and bolting it on to improve longevity.

 

Can you say "Glob Job"?

[Plaidman]

Would it be okay to put a plastic hold or two up there as well? Just wondering.

 

No, it's better to glue on a piece of native rock you find at the base. Consider drilling it out and bolting it on to improve longevity.

 

Then no one would even know, if you did it right.

[Cobra_Commander]

Permanent draws at smith would suck.

[Off_White]

Would it be okay to put a plastic hold or two up there as well? Just wondering.

 

No, it's better to glue on a piece of native rock you find at the base. Consider drilling it out and bolting it on to improve longevity.

 

Then no one would even know, if you did it right.

 

Well, only if everywhere looked like Maple Canyon.