Lucky Larry Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 The great savior of economic progress has arrived bearing the message,"it is green; therefore, go and indulge your desire to drive and consume all that has been labeled green." The green revolution relies just as heavily on oil, if not more than, the current environmental trap. It discards what is still useful to validate the use of more resources to produce green products. In essence the green revolution is a feel good consumerism movement. When has driving ever been green? Even if you pretend that the car is neutrally green everything surrounding its use is not. There is no technological, scientific, economic, or agrarian solution to overpopulation. Beliefs that hold every American can own a home and a car etc are not carbon neutral; especially if it is extrapolated to the other 6 billion or so people. Wikipedia: sustainable development is viewed as a solution but carries the implication that economic growth (the cause of much oil consumption) remains imperative. Quote
billcoe Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) Can't disagree with that. Collectively, we need to consume less resources or our kids will be toast. We can see the petrolium reserves decreasing at a fast rate, so we'll see gas price increaes, but it's close to true across the board for many other things as well. Every time I see "Green Jobs" I think of Oregon paying workers to dye the area next to the road green. "by KGW Staff Posted on September 2, 2010 at 10:39 AM In what looked like a scene from Alice in Wonderland -- Oregon Department Of Transportation has been dyeing the grass green. It's a landscaping experiment along I-5 south of Sutherlin. What was once dead brown grass is now various shades of green. The goal is to save water and money. ODOT officials estimate they can save $8,000 by not watering the grass. The dye-job costs $6,000 a year." Green jobs baby! It's the future and it's here now! Edited January 13, 2011 by billcoe Quote
Lucky Larry Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Nice, I thought it was spirulena. Quote
j_b Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Don't confuse a valid concept like sustainability with commercial attempts to co-opt the concept to sell their junk. and NO, sustainable development doesn't imply growth in all industrial/energy sectors, only in those that are environmentally and socially sustainable. Quote
Lucky Larry Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 Don't confuse a valid concept like sustainability with commercial attempts to co-opt the concept to sell their junk. and NO, sustainable development doesn't imply growth in all industrial/energy sectors, only in those that are environmentally and socially sustainable. Please give give me an example of sustainable if you want to debate it. Quote
j_b Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Sustainable agriculture integrates three main goals--environmental health, economic profitability, and social and economic equity. A variety of philosophies, policies and practices have contributed to these goals. People in many different capacities, from farmers to consumers, have shared this vision and contributed to it. Despite the diversity of people and perspectives, the following themes commonly weave through definitions of sustainable agriculture. Sustainability rests on the principle that we must meet the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Therefore, stewardship of both natural and human resources is of prime importance. Stewardship of human resources includes consideration of social responsibilities such as working and living conditions of laborers, the needs of rural communities, and consumer health and safety both in the present and the future. Stewardship of land and natural resources involves maintaining or enhancing this vital resource base for the long term. follow link for details: http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm Quote
ivan Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 Please give give me an example of sustainable if you want to debate it. cannibalism Quote
j_b Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I bet not. We are too high in the food chain to be eating each other on a regular basis. Quote
rob Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 I love seeing people with solar panels manufactured by modern industry, delivered by jet to their eco-cabin in the woods that was developed using gasoline-powered construction machines, who then proudly proclaim that they're, "off the grid." Nobody is off the grid these days. Quote
Lucky Larry Posted January 12, 2011 Author Posted January 12, 2011 I'm sorry, I meant give me an example of a sustainable business practice, or something, and its mode of operation. I wasn't looking for a philosophy or definition of sustainable. Recently saw this video on how a airport scarfs heat from customers and sells it to a neighbor. Its' overwhelming use of resources to build this green technology leads me to suggest that the environmental damage done to get the resources for this green machine is not sustainable. A misconception of tribes or primitives is that they spent all their time hunting and gathering. Now this my be wrong but I read that they actually spent only 3 hours per day in such sustainable activities. The rest of the time they spent doing nothing. Doing nothing is very hard, try it sometime. Who in todays society can spend most of their time doing nothing? Philosophy is too boring for most people. Doing nothing goes against most western values. And yet I would counter that it is in 'doing something' that has really helped to screw things up. Medicine has led to overpopulation. Science and Technology has led to the bomb, agribusiness, so-called better cars. Social progress has progressed to help the few that are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. Supposedly we can solve the problems through creativity. Prove me wrong; I would welcome it. Give me a model of sustainable. The idea of sustainable is as silly as an Utopian society. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 A misconception of tribes or primitives is that they spent all their time hunting and gathering. Now this my be wrong but I read that they actually spent only 3 hours per day in such sustainable activities. The rest of the time they spent doing nothing. Doing nothing is very hard, try it sometime. But they didn't do "nothing". Art, dance, chants, special celebrations... making war - all outside of the basics of survival. And none of these are "doing nothing". Quote
rob Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 actually, most anthropologists agree that it wasn't until cultivation became widespread did humans have time to "do nothing" (aka science, writing, invention). DUring our hunting and gathering phase, it was thought that there was very little time for progress. This is also thought to be the reason why some cultures, such as the primitive tribes of South America, never advanced much. They don't have the luxury of having scientists, etc. that contribute "nothing." Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 actually, most anthropologists agree that it wasn't until cultivation became widespread did humans have time to "do nothing" (aka science, writing, invention). DUring our hunting and gathering phase, it was thought that there was very little time for progress. This is also thought to be the reason why some cultures, such as the primitive tribes of South America, never advanced much. They don't have the luxury of having scientists, etc. that contribute "nothing." what does drawing on the walls of caves or carving "Mother Goddess" figurines have to do with sustainment (food, shelter)? Quote
rob Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 actually, most anthropologists agree that it wasn't until cultivation became widespread did humans have time to "do nothing" (aka science, writing, invention). DUring our hunting and gathering phase, it was thought that there was very little time for progress. This is also thought to be the reason why some cultures, such as the primitive tribes of South America, never advanced much. They don't have the luxury of having scientists, etc. that contribute "nothing." what does drawing on the walls of caves or carving "Mother Goddess" figurines have to do with sustainment (food, shelter)? It's all relative, of course. Painting on a wall with charcoal requires signifigantly less effort than developing written language. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 actually, most anthropologists agree that it wasn't until cultivation became widespread did humans have time to "do nothing" (aka science, writing, invention). DUring our hunting and gathering phase, it was thought that there was very little time for progress. This is also thought to be the reason why some cultures, such as the primitive tribes of South America, never advanced much. They don't have the luxury of having scientists, etc. that contribute "nothing." what does drawing on the walls of caves or carving "Mother Goddess" figurines have to do with sustainment (food, shelter)? It's all relative, of course. Painting on a wall with charcoal requires signifigantly less effort than developing written language. True. I was thinking in terms of Native Americans - no written language, but definitely time for things like art, dance, oral traditions (passing down stories), etc. Filling in gaps between just getting food and shelter secured. Quote
ivan Posted January 12, 2011 Posted January 12, 2011 if i was transported back to 100,000 BC i'd likely spend all my time trying to recreate the adult beverage industry from memory Quote
ivan Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Please give give me an example of sustainable if you want to debate it. cannibalism sure seemed a sustainable business practice in texas chainsaw massacre - so long as the highway don't close down... Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 if i was transported back to 100,000 BC i'd likely spend all my time trying to recreate the adult beverage industry from memory linky - don't tell choada boy Quote
ivan Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 if i was transported back to 100,000 BC i'd likely spend all my time trying to recreate the adult beverage industry from memory linky - don't tell choada boy a far more important technology than what capt. kirk was so concerned w/ recreating Quote
j_b Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 I'm sorry, I meant give me an example of a sustainable business practice, or something, and its mode of operation. I wasn't looking for a philosophy or definition of sustainable. Sustainable agriculture is a business. So is sustainable fishing, etc.. sustainable harvesting of resources has been practiced for centuries. I don't know whether there are fully sustainable manufacturing plants at the present because it's likely quite difficult to avoid all supplies/energy that are produced non-sustainably, but the technologies to do so sustainably exist. Recently saw this video on how a airport scarfs heat from customers and sells it to a neighbor. Its' overwhelming use of resources to build this green technology leads me to suggest that the environmental damage done to get the resources for this green machine is not sustainable. I am not sure what you are referring to but co-generation has been around for a long time and it's very efficient. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Sustainable means steady state for energy, air, water, soil, and other basic raw material use over the long term. We WILL get there just as sure as we'll all kick the bucket. Whether under our own power or by force? That's the question. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Logging and milling using hog fuel (waste wood) is a pretty sustainable business. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Particularly if there's a river available for transport. Quote
tvashtarkatena Posted January 13, 2011 Posted January 13, 2011 Nuclear's sustainable, too, purt much. Lotta that shit around. Quote
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