Black Diamond gets SOLD!

[JosephH]

Hmmm, that's a bit of a reading comprehension problem you have going there. Armor didn't buy the company that made the bad vests until after the fact - i.e. Armor didn't have anything to do with making the bad vests and from 1998-2005 wasn't in the vest business.

[genepires]

must be the NJ air.

[johndavidjr]

Dumb-ass fools!

 

From Clarus' 2010 proxy statement to SEC:

"Prior to the completion of the acquisition of Armor Holdings, Inc., formerly a New York Stock Exchange-listed company and a manufacturer and supplier of military vehicles, armored vehicles and safety and survivability products and systems to the aerospace and defense, public safety, homeland security and commercial markets, by BAE Systems plc on July 31, 2007, he [Kanders] served as the Chairman of the Board of Armor Holdings, Inc. since January 1996 and as its Chief Executive Officer since April 2003."

 

[http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/913277/000114420409023274/v147174_def14a.htm]

 

I know you're already having a lot of trouble following this, but Armor Holdings paid a $30 million fine for "knowingly" making and selling defective safety equipment during the years 2000-2005.

 

Bear with me now and concentrate really hard on this..... Kander was head of Armor during the period 2000-2003.

 

I know you're going to have a lot of difficulty with this. Maybe you'll have to trust me??

[JosephH]

Yes, but they didn't own the vest maker then, Armor inhereted the obligation to pay the fine when they bought the vest company. Are you really not getting how that works?

[genepires]

From my limited knowledge of corporate business, the chairman of the board represents the share holders or other investors and doesn't run the company. The CEO runs the company, which as you state, he did after the the company made the BS body armor. there is the 2 years though 2003 to 2005.

 

Go ahead and give me crap and call me names.

 

 

"I know you're going to have a lot of difficulty with this. Maybe you'll have to trust me??"

I don't trust anyone who spends a dollar at walmart... or corporate america... or hippies.

[zeroforhire]

yikes... just checked back in on this thread after being away awhile...

 

lots of hate being spewed about, and most of it is uninformed.

 

I will continue to buy from BD until I find another manufacturer I like better. Simple as that. I have had great experiences with most of their products over the years, and will definitely be watching them closely as they make this transition.

 

carry on...

[johndavidjr]

Wow, what a lot of dumb pricks here.

 

Genepires, Thanks for admitting your error.

My impression over time has been that this can be expected from you.

 

Those who continue to insist on wildly misinformed fantasy can't be helped. But to purchase BD gear is to trust Wm Kanders, which is, based on the record, a senseless gamble.

 

Perhaps a new post could unambiguously establish the facts for those who are having trouble?

Edited May 25, 2010 by johndavidjr

[John Frieh]

I will continue to buy from BD until I find another manufacturer I like better. Simple as that. I have had great experiences with most of their products over the years, and will definitely be watching them closely as they make this transition.

 

+1

[johndavidjr]

Somebody will point out that Armor acquired a vest maker in mid-2005 and THAT was the culprit...

 

But Kanders' Armor Holdings made the sucky zylon bullet-proof vests prior to this period. Think was $20 million when they "voluntarily" backed off & just before the 05 acquisition. You can see the relevant information here:

 

http://www.allbusiness.com/company-activities-management/financial-performance/12882970-1.html

 

Interesting that Armor never admitted culpability; financial, moral or otherwise.

 

Irresponsible management, in other words.

 

God Bless Stamford, Connecticut-based Clarus.

 

God Bless the uninformed fools here who for some reason wanna kiss Mr. Kanders' scummy ass.

 

Or maybe you like this Kanders protege:

http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices/13801735-1.html

[JosephH]

Absolutely not, neither Kanders nor Armor made any vests prior to August 2, 2005 - the day they acquired the vest company.

 

Read the last sentence in the body of this link:

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_(body_armor)?wasRedirected=true

[johndavidjr]

Dummkopfh!!!

 

SEC Armor prospectus 2004 quote page 14 etc:

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/845752/000095013604000026/file001.txt

 

Second Chance Body Armor, Inc., a body armor manufacturer and

competitor to Armor Holdings, has notified its customers of a potential safety

issue with their Ultima® and Ultimax® models. Second Chance Body Armor has

claimed that Zylon® fiber, which is made by Toyobo, a Japanese

 

 

 

15

 

corporation, and used in the ballistic fabric construction of those two models,

degraded more rapidly than originally anticipated. Second Chance Body Armor has

also stated that the Zylon® degradation problem affects the entire body armor

industry, not just their products. Both private claimants and State Attorneys

General have already commenced legal action against Second Chance Body Armor

based upon its Ultima® and Ultimax® model vests. Second Chance Body Armor

licenses from us a certain patented technology which is used in the body armor

it manufactures, but to our knowledge, no lawsuit has yet been brought against

Second Chance Body Armor based upon this licensed technology.

 

We use Zylon® fiber in a number of concealable body armor models for

law enforcement, but our design approach and construction are very different. We

have been testing our Zylon®-based vests since their 2000 introduction and to

date these tests of our Zylon®-based vests show no unanticipated degradation

in ballistic performance. In addition, to our knowledge, no other body armor

manufacturer has reported or experienced similar problems as those cited by

Second Chance Body Armor. Finally, the National Institute of Justice tests and

certifies each of our body armor designs before we begin to produce or sell any

particular model.

 

[Dane]

Warren Kanders had NOTHING to do with 2nd Chance until well after the Zylon issue was made public by 2nd Chance in Sept of 2003 and Zylon vest production had stopped there at 2nd C. There is a 23 month gap between faulty vest manufacture and Warren Kanders assuming control of 2nd Chance via Armor Holdings. 9/'03 to 8/'05.

 

Some take liable and slander very seriously. I'd be real careful about what I posted that might hurt a climbing company's income or its reputation.

 

Let me see if I can better explain the time line.

 

"In 1998, Second Chance introduced Zylon-based body armor (bullet-resistant vests), as a lightweight alternative to kevlar. The Zylon material used in the vests was supplied by Japan-based Toyobo."

 

Second Chance filed for bankruptcy protection in Oct. 2004 specifically because of the law suits instigated by the use of Zylon in their vests. As of 2003 an estimated 200,000 of the nation's 700,000 police officers were believed to wear vests made with Zylon, which has been used by other body armor manufacturers in the United States and Canada.

 

In June 2005, the National Institute of Justice, the United States government agency responsible for developing safety standards, determined that these Zylon-based vests NO LONGER met the required standards and may be defective. The United States Department of Justice advised law enforcement agencies to replace the vests used by police officers.

 

Same NIJ that certified Zylon for use in vests every year from '98 to June '05.

 

On August 2, 2005, Second Chance was acquired by Armor Holdings, Inc. for bargain basement price of $45 million.

 

Kanders served as the Chairman of the Board of Armor Holdings, Inc. from January 1996 and as its Chief Executive Officer from April 2003 until the sell in 2007 to BAE."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chance_(body_armor)

 

"By 2001, Second Chance's research chief, Aaron Westrick, was pleading unsuccessfully with his company's president to replace the (Zylon) vests after his own tests showed them degrading, the memos show.

 

"Lives and our credibility are at stake," Westrick wrote then-Second Chance president Richard Davis in a Dec. 18, 2001, memo. "We will only prevail if we do the right things and not hesitate. This issue should not be hidden for obvious safety issues and because of future litigation."

 

Westrick urged Davis to "immediately notify our customers of the degradation problems," let those with pending orders cancel them and cease all executive bonuses to save money so the company could pay for a replacement initiative, the memo shows.

 

But Second Chance customers were not alerted to the problems until September 2003"

 

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/body-armor/articles/119315-Federal-prosecutors-investigate-Second-Chance-vest-maker/

 

"Second Chance dates to the 1970s in Central Lake, and was founded by local resident Richard Davis. It once was among country's leading producers of soft, concealable body armor for police officers.

 

But operations started to unravel when it was sued by several states and the U.S. Justice Department over allegations that the equipment prematurely lost its bullet resistance with age, a problem the company blamed on a product supplier. Second Chance filed for bankruptcy protection in 2004 and was purchased a year later by Armor Holdings Inc. for $45 million.

 

Armor Holdings was acquired by the British giant BAE Systems Plc in 2007 for $4.1 billion, and became known as Safariland in January '08. In October 2008, the parent company (Safariland) paid $30 million to settle the Justice Department's suit."

 

http://record-eagle.com/antrim/x75069712/Second-Chance-closing-its-doors

 

Controling majority interest in 2nd Chance went like this,

Richard Davis '71

Karen Davis by divorce '95

Zylon problem made public by 2nd Chance '03

Bankruptcy '04

Armor Holdings in '05

BAE in July '07

Safariland in '07 (who actually paid the $30m fine)

 

So the 2nd Chance connection should be a dead issue.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zylon

 

More on Zylon:

 

Body Armor

"Zylon gained wide use in U.S. police officers body armor protection in 1998 with its introduction by Second Chance Body Armor, Inc. .... Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months. In August 2005, AHI decided to discontinue manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests. This was largely based on the actions of the U.S. government's National Institute of Justice, which decertified Zylon for use in its approved models of ballistic vests for law enforcement."

 

Looks to me like Warren Kanders stopped the production of any Zylon vests at Armor Holdings Inc once they were aware of all the issues. Even though they had tried to solve the problem by a shorter warrenty earlier and a recall of older vests. The now AHI owned, 2nd Chance had already stopped production of Zylon back in '03.

 

A little knowledge about the history of Zylon would make you look at the production dates past June of '05 as questionable but there is no easy answer here. AHI was still producing Zylon between June and August. Then it stopped. Looks to me like Black Diamond is in good and equally important, attentive hands.

[johndavidjr]

You're like a flat-earther, or a corporate groupie or something.

 

The 2004 SEC document that Armor filed & linked above contradicts you.

 

And yeah, they "voluntarily" stopped making the vests when the Feds started investigating.

 

Then they paid $30 million fine for "knowingly" making and selling unsafe safety gear.

 

"Good and attentive hands" indeed.

[genepires]

John, you need to chill out a little.

 

If you want to convince people, you need a more logical explanation than what you are providing. From what is presented so far, 2nd chance made the faulty armor, they went bankrupt and then sold to armor holdings which Kanders was in some way a part of. Armor paid the fines since they are liable for whatever happened before. How is it that Armor made the faulty vests? How is it that Kanders is responsible for making the bad vests?

 

whatever.......like talking to a stone, except stones are fun to be around.

[Dane]

Boy talk about a mess. I had no idea just how expensive the Zylon issue became for the industry. And we thought the liability issues in climbing were bad?

 

I bet Warren Kanders has an opinion on that one

 

Imagine how happy the BOD at Armor Holding had to be as they acquired more and more law suits as the parent company for Second Chance Body Armor let alone their own Zylon manufacturing.

 

Check these out if you are interested in such things.

 

http://www.law360.com/company_articles/220

 

http://www.lawcash.com/attorney/3406/armor-holdings-lawsuit.asp

 

http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/armorholdingsinc.html

[eldiente]

This is all very normal stuff more most businesses. Without looking at the books, it appears BD grew too fast and over extended themselves. That's great their revenue is growing, but this can be a curse. I would be curious as to what BD's cash situation is and how profitable they are? To sustain themselves and all their new ventures, they need cash and that's where XYZ Corporate Giant from Hell comes in.

 

BD got into a lot of new markets recently, skis, packs,tents, headlamps etc. I'm not sure this was such a hot idea as it takes them out of their core competency. I hate to see groups like this grow for the sake of growth. Some of these products are OK, but some are downright awful (BD's packs are the worst I've ever used) Staying small and focused isn't for everyone, however for a climbing company I would rather they do a few things well instead of trying to do everything half-ass. (When is BD coming out with a bike, or ropes or boots?)

 

Going forward I can't see any reason that their hardware will become "unsafe." Cams, binners and the like are fairly simple things to make, assuming BD keeps using the same tooling there is no reason that their hardware will change. Also, last I checked BD was pull testing cams to half strength before they leave the shop. Good enough for me.

 

Gear wise, BD makes a few nice things (hard to not like a nice #2) but there are others out there that are doing just as good of job or in some cases, doing it better. I now consider the Master Cam the gold standard for cams and reach for them most often. Unlike BD, Metolius is a local company doing just a few things really well. If you like the idea of supporting local business and climbers, buy their gear. If you like to give your cash to a bunch of ass-hats from Jersey that know zero about climbing, buy some BD cams.

 

-Nate

 

 

 

 

 

[johndavidjr]

Genepires:

Armor made the "zylon" vests in question from 2000 to 2005. Second Chance was their main competitor, and made a very similar vest. Armor explains most of this genererally on page 24 of the 2004 prospectus

 

Just before the acquisition of Second Chance, Amor "voluntarily" stopped making the vests. That's in Reuters story. Fair to assume because the Feds were already breathing down their neck, and they were beset by various other lawsuits.

 

Nate: I agree that the acquisition of BD was garden-variety business stuff, & probably BD equipment won't become unsafe.

 

Irks me that a great manufacturer is now controlled by Wall Street and that the main actor/insider will be Kanders, whose company the DoJ says "violated the False Claims Act by knowingly manufacturing and selling defective Zylon bullet-proof vests."

 

Might be now said that Kanders is known for pump and dump (in a good way) and BD's future is/may be unstable.

 

 

Also, as your reading comprehension and knowledge of geography improves, you may find that Clarus is in Connecticut, rather than New Jersey.

 

JosepH: I hope you're learning a little from this.

 

[eldiente]

Quick question for you John, answer as you like.

 

EX: You buy a used car, low miles and dirt cheap. The previous owner meets you and says this "Man, I'm bad. I ran over a kid with it while I was drunk. I owe lots of parking tickets on it, would you like to buy it?" The deal is cheap, so you agree, pay off the parking tickets and go about your way.

 

Now you are the owner of a child killing car. Does that make you a "bad" person not fit to perform the job of safely driving this car without running over any more kids? The fact remains, you are the operator of a child killing car.

 

I have only scanned the links above, sorry I'm not that informed. However, reading your post it looks like the new owners of BD bought a company that used to make un-safe products. This is what you are saying, yes no?

 

Oh and Jersey, Connecticut, is there a difference? All of those States that you can walk-across in a day can die. Nothing good coming out of there except failed banks.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2010 by eldiente

[johndavidjr]

No and yes.

[eldiente]

Genepires:

Nate: I agree that the acquisition of BD was garden-variety business stuff, & probably BD equipment won't become unsafe.

 

 

Hold on, I'm late here but if I'm reading your previous posts right, you were very loudly arguing that BD gear would now become unsafe Now you are saying "BD equipment won't become unsafe." Which way you want to go with this?

 

-Nate

 

Edited May 26, 2010 by eldiente

[johndavidjr]

Whether that's appropriate hyberbole, or recognizable as such, I don't know.

 

My gut tells me something might go wrong at the last minute and I get sweaty palms.

[Dane]

It is all in the details. And the majority of the details are wrong or misleading at best. Saying something isn't proving it.

 

Armor made the "zylon" vests in question from 2000 to 2005. Second Chance was their main competitor, and made a very similar vest. Armor explains most of this genererally on page 24 of the 2004 prospectus

 

Just before the acquisition of Second Chance, Amor "voluntarily" stopped making the vests.....assume because the Feds were already breathing down their neck, and they were beset by various other lawsuits.....actor/insider will be Kanders, whose company the DoJ says "violated the False Claims Act by knowingly manufacturing and selling defective Zylon bullet-proof vests."

 

I'd bet few in the discussion have seen a Zylon or Kevlar vest in person or have any idea as to the differences. Highlights below are mine.

 

Page 14 and 15 (not page 24) from the Jan 2004 SEC FORM S-4 ARMOR HOLDINGS, INC.

 

"ZYLON® INVESTIGATION

 

Second Chance Body Armor, Inc., a body armor manufacturer and

competitor to Armor Holdings, has notified its customers of a potential safety issue with their Ultima® and Ultimax® models. Second Chance Body Armor has claimed that Zylon® fiber, which is made by Toyobo, a Japanese corporation, and used in the ballistic fabric construction of those two models, degraded more rapidly than originally anticipated. Second Chance Body Armor has also stated that the Zylon® degradation problem affects the entire body armor industry, not just their products. Both private claimants and State Attorneys General have already commenced legal action against Second Chance Body Armor based upon its Ultima® and Ultimax® model vests. Second Chance Body Armor licenses from us a certain patented technology which is used in the body armor it manufactures, but to our knowledge, no lawsuit has yet been brought against Second Chance Body Armor based upon this licensed technology.

 

We use Zylon® fiber in a number of concealable body armor models for law enforcement, but our design approach and construction are very different. We have been testing our Zylon®-based vests since their 2000 introduction and to date these tests of our Zylon®-based vests show no unanticipated degradation in ballistic performance. In addition, to our knowledge, no other body armor manufacturer has reported or experienced similar problems as those cited by Second Chance Body Armor. Finally, the National Institute of Justice tests and certifies each of our body armor designs before we begin to produce or sell any particular model.

 

Following the Second Chance Body Armor assertions, several key law enforcement associations have raised the issue to the U.S. Department of Justice and Attorney General's Office. The U.S. Attorney General has asked the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate the concerns and produce information to

clarify the issues. We support the Attorney General's directive and the investigation.

 

As we have licensed our technology to Second Chance Body Armor, we may be impacted by the pending claims against Second Chance Body Armor and the investigation being conducted by the U.S. Department of Justice."

 

 

My point is simple. Rage on about Kanders if you like as a corporate raider or his ability to manage the corporate culture surrounding BD. But to imply that the the DOJ or the Zylon disaster has anything to do with Kanders being personally irresponsible or unethical, is simple, uneducated, hyperbole.

 

[LostCamKenny]

Quick question for you John, answer as you like.

 

EX: You buy a used car, low miles and dirt cheap. The previous owner meets you and says this "Man, I'm bad. I ran over a kid with it while I was drunk. I owe lots of parking tickets on it, would you like to buy it?" The deal is cheap, so you agree, pay off the parking tickets and go about your way.

 

Now you are the owner of a child killing car. Does that make you a "bad" person not fit to perform the job of safely driving this car without running over any more kids? The fact remains, you are the operator of a child killing car.

 

I have only scanned the links above, sorry I'm not that informed. However, reading your post it looks like the new owners of BD bought a company that used to make un-safe products. This is what you are saying, yes no?

 

Oh and Jersey, Connecticut, is there a difference? All of those States that you can walk-across in a day can die. Nothing good coming out of there except failed banks.

especially the part about the jersey-connecticut difference!

[johndavidjr]

There is a difference between New Jersey and Connecticut.

Answer to Lostcam's insightful question...is therefore yes.

 

Factually challenged insight by JosepH is that:

 

"The defective vest were made by Second Chance, inc. and Kanders' Armor Holdings scooped them up in August 2005 two months after the National Institute of Justice declared the vests defective in June 2005. Legal work on the issue and fines didn't wrap up for a

couple more years"

 

Incorrect view from Dane, aka "Mr. Reading Comprehedo":

 

"...question is how all this (the entire topic and discussion) relates back to Clarus Chairman, Warren Kanders?

 

The time line shows that it doesn't.....".

 

Sad commentary on Tacoma public schools...

[Dane]

Geezus..try some context if you want to have an intelligent discussion.

 

"My point is simple. Rage on about Kanders if you like as a corporate raider or his abilities to manage the corporate culture surrounding BD. But to imply that the the DOJ or the Zylon disaster has anything to do with Kanders being personally irresponsible or unethical, is simple, uneducated, hyperbole."

 

Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy in 2004. AH Inc bought 2nd Chance in 2005. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months as all the other manufactures became aware of the durablity issues with Zylon. In the summer 2005, AHI discontinued manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests AFTER Zylon, as a material, lost its NIJ rating, and the law suits across the entire industry started piling up. It was, after all, the NIJ who was required and did certified Zylon as appropriate for use as a ballistic vest material.

 

Not because AHI vests had failed. Although in hind sight it is obvious now any Zylon vest will fail over time. The failed vests were a 2nd Chance issue because they had been on the market the longest and because of the proprietary 2nd Chance designs that so heavily relied on Zylon.

 

Plenty of evidence that Richard Davis of 2nd Chance made some bad ethical decisions all would find questionable by not publically announcing the Zylion issues earlier.

 

At that point (loss of NIJ certification) anyone/everyone who had previously made ballistics vests from Zylon was sued.

 

And from what I can find I still see no wrong doing by Kanders.