Wopper Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Ivan - I say go for it. I also think you should lead on 6mm cord. If you are going to save weight and money you might as well do it right!On a more serious note, take heed to what the posts above are saying about investing in some 'biners. The life you save may be your own!Oh yeah - Rodchester is right about 36" slings - they suck for alpine climbing. [ 03-19-2002: Message edited by: Wopper ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Ivan,I am glad that you and your "engineer" buddy are climbing in Virginia and not around here. Please get your shit figured out before you start climbing around here so that I can avoid being involved in your body recovery. Slinging wire is obviously stupid. Girth hitching slings is acceptable if it is not to be subjected to high impact forces (leader falls). The heat generated when girth-hitched slings tighten suddenly against one another in a fall can overheat and seriously weaken them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Retrosaurus: Slinging wire is obviously stupid. Hyperbole.Try critical thinking for a change, dude: Girth hitching reduces runner strength by up to 30%. Okay, so you started with 25kN for sewn Spectra, and now you're down to 17kN with a girth hitch. The strongest Stopper swage is 10kN. Guess what might be the first thing to fail when pulling on a girth-hitched Stopper? If this doesn't convince you, then consider that manufacturers have sewn slings to wires without in-use falures occurring (Smiley's for example). I've so much bullshit in this thread, I'm fucking amazed. It seems clear that many people climb with little idea of the limitations of their gear despite all the available information (even information that they quote). If you folks want to worry about stupid stuff, read the AAC's "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" so you'll realize what actually results in accidents. Gear failure is extremely rare, but can occur when the fall factor (Fall Factor = Length of Fall / Length of Rope [or runner]) is high. I'll continue to girth hitch gear when I'm running low on carabiners high on a pitch (or linking slings together to form a longer one), and I won't be worrying about a sling getting cut or melting. rant's over . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Freeclimb9 "I'll continue to girth hitch gear when I'm running low on carabiners high on a pitch (or linking slings together to form a longer one), and I won't be worrying about a sling getting cut or melting." But he was asking if he should do it from the get go, actually as a plan...not just when he is running low on biners high on a pitch. Also most of your info as cited pertains to strengths, not rope bearing surface and or cutting ability? It doesn't matter how strong a rope or a draw is, it can still be cut. The smaller the rope bearing surface the greater the "cutting" effect on the rope or draw. Is it a hot knife through butter? No...that is why I even said it can be done at times (in a pinch), but it GREATLY increases the risk. If that is a risk you choose to take, go ahead. But this young Jedi needs to be informed of the risk associated with this tecnique. Good luck....buy Omega Pacific Biners. Only the best prision labor. [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: Rodchester ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceIceBaby Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: Hyperbole.Try critical thinking for a change, dude: Girth hitching reduces runner strength by up to 30%. Okay, so you started with 25kN for sewn Spectra, and now you're down to 17kN with a girth hitch. The strongest Stopper swage is 10kN. Guess what might be the first thing to fail when pulling on a girth-hitched Stopper? If this doesn't convince you, then consider that manufacturers have sewn slings to wires without in-use falures occurring (Smiley's for example). I've so much bullshit in this thread, I'm fucking amazed. It seems clear that many people climb with little idea of the limitations of their gear despite all the available information (even information that they quote). If you folks want to worry about stupid stuff, read the AAC's "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" so you'll realize what actually results in accidents. Gear failure is extremely rare, but can occur when the fall factor (Fall Factor = Length of Fall / Length of Rope [or runner]) is high. I'll continue to girth hitch gear when I'm running low on carabiners high on a pitch (or linking slings together to form a longer one), and I won't be worrying about a sling getting cut or melting. rant's over . . . I think u assume that the sling are brand new and dry and the day is beautiful and you in the best shape physically basically optimistic conditions, and u strongly believing in that...(I hope u will never be proven otherwise)I don't know about u, but my approach to placing pro is very pessimistic and expecting the worst I also rather carrying a little more binners then too little (but aiming for exact) I like to stack the odds to my favor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Heres a real simple demonstration. set a single piece anchor wire nut at top of a cliff. girth hitch a sling to it. attach 50L pack full of rocks. tie the rocks off on 30 feet of slack to the girth hitched sling then throw them off the cliff. (Factor 1 fall with 30 footfall on 30 ft of line out) repeat and see how long it takes wire to cut the sling through. but you know, if i have to join 2 sewn slings, i usually girth hitch em together. cause mostly i do this to wrap em around a tree for an anchor and if you were to use biners to jointhem in such a situation, the biners would be crossloaded by being forced against the tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: Heres a real simple demonstration. set a single piece anchor wire nut at top of a cliff. girth hitch a sling to it. attach 50L pack full of rocks. tie the rocks off on 30 feet of slack to the girth hitched sling then throw them off the cliff. (Factor 1 fall with 30 footfall on 30 ft of line out) repeat and see how long it takes wire to cut the sling through. Add if your buddy really thinks his method is sound have him stand directly under the pack when you cut her loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 And stand under it without a helmet. Would that even make the accidents in N.A. Mountainering...or maybe the Darwin awards? Maybe both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted March 20, 2002 Author Share Posted March 20, 2002 jesus...info overload i like the jedi reference...shame the new movies suck appreciate all the responses...the consensus seems to be that, at best, girth hitching is unnecessary, at worst, deadly. it seemed incorrect to me, to begin with, and the lesson i learn from this dialouge is to avoid said arrangement except for in low risk or emergency situations i have plenty of biners (and was attaching pro the prescribed way almost exclusively anyhow), but wanted a verdict of my friends concept feel free to continue arguing...its amusing...why doesn't somebody go ahead and be a sweetheart and call somebody a mother-fucker or something? ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Anderson Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 So Baccar used to save money on a harness by just tying the rope to his unit on certain climbs. Seems like a good idea. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Phatty Matty Funny guy. Matt given your profession, do you know any Omega Pacific employees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Freeclimb9 is obviously one of those stupid engineers. Maybe he should move to Virginia too. Maybe they are related; cousins or brothers or both. Honestly, the most dangerous shit I've ever seen done on crags and in the mountains was done by engineers. Of course they were also graduates of the Mountaineers Course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Matt Anderson: So Baccar used to save money on a harness by just tying the rope to his unit on certain climbs. Seems like a good idea. What do you guys think? that was john redhead in britain. the only guy who can give bill robins a run for his money on naming new routes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wopper Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Freeclimb9 - Do you only girth hitch pro when running out of/attempting to conserve biners or do it all the time and not take any biners with you? From your argument above, you state that you only do it under certain circumstances but you also seem to be trying to make the case that it is acceptable to do it all the time. If it is so safe and you do have a doctorate of proctology why is not taught this way in every article/book/course/hands on teaching I (and apparently the majority of this board) has encountered? Just curious, mon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Wopper: Freeclimb9 - Do you only girth hitch pro when running out of/attempting to conserve biners or do it all the time and not take any biners with you? From your argument above, you state that you only do it under certain circumstances but you also seem to be trying to make the case that it is acceptable to do it all the time. If it is so safe and you do have a doctorate of proctology why is not taught this way in every article/book/course/hands on teaching I (and apparently the majority of this board) has encountered? Just curious, mon. I girth hitch the nylon sewn slings on camming units and tri-cams --and sometimes even on wired nuts [Hey, it's even a useful knot for tying off shallow-placement Bugaboos, angles, Lost Arrows, and ice screws]-- when trying to conserve biners when far away from the belay (i.e. plenty of rope stretch). I try to use carabiners on the first few pieces placed after leaving the belay. And I place those first pieces pretty close to the belay to limit the fall factor. But I do often link sewn spectra runners together with girth hitches irregardless of how much rope is between me and the belay. I have used girth-hitched runners in favor over carbiners when a 'biner would be levers over a bulge (the fixed-pin on Extreme Unction in Ferguson canyon comes to mind as well a a bolt on Wily Javelina in the Coyote Mtns). I like to climb with a dozen, or so, 24" sewn spectra runners when on long routes. I've been lucky enough to climb with some pretty accomplished climbers, and have learned from them the use of these tactics. The justification of their use is that it's still strong. BTW, your proctology remark isn't endearing. In person, my quick Irish temper would have you bleeding. [ 03-20-2002: Message edited by: freeclimb9 ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelly Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 FreeClimb9 - Since you insist on attaching webbing to gear in a dangerous and unconventional fashion, perhaps you should consider threading the sling through the nut, other sling, cam, etc and clip both ends with the biner. That way, at least, you eliminate the girth hitch and minimize the danger (emphasis on "minimize"). Spray on Doctor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeclimb9 Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 right on Nelly. I'll continue to use every trick, tack, and crackerjack in this game of climbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 It's not the girth hitch that is so concerning here, it's what you are girth hitching to that's problematic. I would girth-hitch to a 'biner, around a tree, but not through a wire. Yup, cuts like a knife. I like Dru's test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by allison: It's not the girth hitch that is so concerning here, it's what you are girth hitching to that's problematic. I would girth-hitch to a 'biner, around a tree, but not through a wire. Yup, cuts like a knife. I like Dru's test. why would you girth hitch to a biner when you could clip?????????????????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeTool Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Ok, let me get this straight; It would be ok to girth hitch spectra webbing to a prisoners unit while he's holding on to a tree as long as he's working for OP, and throw him on to freeclimp9? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by JoeTool: Ok, let me get this straight; It would be ok to girth hitch spectra webbing to a prisoners unit while he's holding on to a tree as long as he's working for OP, and throw him on to freeclimp9? only if he is tied off to Muir Hut too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeTool Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeTool Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 whoops i meant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: I've been blah blah climbing game for twenty years, and have rarely blah blah blah, of gear failures. Do have an illustrative example of a webbing failure? diddle diddle blah snip Since you ask for an example, here is one for you to pick apart and discount as irrelevant: Ben DeMenech took a factor >>1 fall on Midnight Watch when the webbing on an old style (U cable) junior Camalot sliced through on the cable where the protective plastic sleeve had broken. He did not die nor was seriously injured in the fall. You did not read about this adventure? (see below). quote: Originally posted by freeclimb9: The AAC keeps records of this type of shit. Become informed. Records are only kept when people make reports. People usually only make reports when someone dies or is seriously injured (see above). Maybe ANAM gives no examples of accident resulting from girth hitching to cable, but taking this thread as an example, most of us know better than to use that method in a life-dependent situation. I am not surprised that there are no reports of death due to a technique that basically no-one practices anyways. However Ivan's buddy quite obviously doesn't have the to know what constitutes a life-dependent situation or not, so perhaps he will die and next year we can read all about him in ANAM over a few and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrosaurus Posted March 20, 2002 Share Posted March 20, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Dru: why would you girth hitch to a biner when you could clip?????????????????????????? To hold nuts in opposition.To shorten a runner.I am sure there are other uses, but these come to mind quickly. I knew Freeclimb was an academician. Hopefully he will post his climbing schedule with the mountaineers on their website so that we can avoid being involved in the rescue/recovery/clusterfuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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