5.15

[JosephH]

I don't believe anyone considers either route to be a sport climb. EBGBs was bolted ground up and considered old school bolted trad; don't know the history of Rock Warrior, but am familar with it having been on Sandstone Samuri.

 

Making simple, obvious placements on well-defined crack climbs is not a particularly big deal, especially when climbing well under your limit. But the real deal with any significant trad climbing at or near your limit is the emotional control involved in dealing with knowing there isn't going to be a next clip unless you provide one, or in the case of old-school bolted trad, knowing the next one is a long way out.

 

It's the emotional discipline and risks involved with the unknown - whether internal or external - that are what makes trad climbing so much more committing than sport climbing. You can certainly point out the exceptions - and I'll grant you there are a lot of them on a crag-by-crag basis - but again, the sport/trad delta says it all.

 

I would also say, sport or trad, that a lack of experience with, and unwillingness / hestitancy towards, taking long[er] falls is also part of the issue overall and something folks don't get much in the way of experience with in gyms or on most sport climbs.

[Off_White]

Doesn't almost everyone exhibit an unwillingness/hesitancy towards taking long falls, or is that just me?

[JosephH]

if your dad was saying that about peeps flying 747s

Dad learned to fly in bi-planes in classes where only 2/3s to 3/4s of any class lived to graduate. He then flew single engine fighters where there weren't a lot of options when things went wrong and went on to be a test pilot at what's now Cape Canaveral. You're right, good military and commercial pilots are elitist and they don't hold a very high regard for pilots who aren't 'naturals' - principally because they've proven over the decades that while fine when nothing is going wrong - they general respond poorly when things go south. That's been my same experience with climbers over 35 years of climbing.

 

...then i guess it goes hand in hand with your elitism regarding your 5.12 "test-pieces"

I have no elitism my climbing, and certainly none about my climbs, none of which I would consider "test-pieces". You're more than welcome to get on them yourself, however, I'm sure you'd find them all trivial.

[StevenSeagal]

Doesn't almost everyone exhibit an unwillingness/hesitancy towards taking long falls, or is that just me?

 

it's just you. It's not real climbing unless a fall is likely and will involve certain death or grave injury. Everyone can do what they want and I don't judge them for it, I just think they are pathetic pussies who are ruining my sport. I hate people.

[Off_White]

Dad learned to fly in bi-planes in classes where only 2/3s to 3/4s of any class lived to graduate. He then flew single engine fighters where there weren't a lot of options when things went wrong and went on to be a test pilot at what's now Cape Canaveral. You're right, good military and commercial pilots are elitist and they don't hold a very high regard for pilots who aren't 'naturals' - principally because they've proven over the decades that while fine when nothing is going wrong - they general respond poorly when things go south. That's been my same experience with climbers over 35 years of climbing.

 

I dunno about that Joe. As a climber, I am not a natural, and I've had to actually work at it to remain mediocre for 36 years now. No one has ever described my climbing ability as brilliant. Nonetheless, if things go sideways, I'm a good person to have as a partner. That's partly a function of experience - time and effort - and has nothing at all to do with being a "natural."

 

Character is another important aspect in a solid partner, and that also has nothing whatsoever to do with ability.

[JosephH]

...Nonetheless, if things go sideways, I'm a good person to have as a partner. That's partly a function of experience - time and effort - and has nothing at all to do with being a "natural."

 

Character is another important aspect in a solid partner, and that also has nothing whatsoever to do with ability.

Off, don't know you and haven't climbed with you, but I've certainly met exceptions to the rule, from what I hear on ST it sounds like you're one of them if, as you claim, aren't a natural or have no particular instinct for climbing. I've also run across some folks who aren't necessarily 'natural' climbers, but who do have an extremely honed gift for self-preservation that helps compensate when things go bad.

[JosephH]

Doesn't almost everyone exhibit an unwillingness/hesitancy towards taking long falls, or is that just me?

it's just you. It's not real climbing unless a fall is likely and will involve certain death or grave injury. Everyone can do what they want and I don't judge them for it, I just think they are pathetic pussies who are ruining my sport. I hate people.

The point about long[er] falls was relative to folks' delta between sport/trad levels.

[Raindawg]

Homer: [sweetly] Son, come here! Heh heh heh...[bart sits on Homer's knee] Of course I'm not mad. If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing! You just stick that guitar in the closet next to your short-wave radio, your karate outfit and your unicycle, and we'll go inside and watch TV.

 

"Or you can go outside and take up that dumb-downed unecological version of climbing called 'sport'!"

[Raindawg]

We all climb for the way it makes us feel, but Pope and Raindawg's ethics seem way too rigid to be enjoyable.

 

So don't adhere to it! No one's forcing anyone to not hangdog/siege climb. We're presenting another perspective which is apparently some sort of crime on a climbing "discussion" site. If we think you're a stylistically-weak WUSS, who cares???? The way some of these vulgar clowns act around here, they must be

a) foul-mouthed 13 years old,

and/or

b) think we have the power of the universe to take away their slacker version of fun!

Siege climb all you want, and pretend you're good to go, if that's what get's you all excited! Go get it, cowboy! Yee ha!

 

Make drilling bolts a casual and routine habit on public property, though, and then it does become an issue. Otherwise, WUSS AWAY!

 

 

"Back off, ground-up, trad-mongering low-impact substantiators! We's workin' on our 'project! Take!"

[pope]

BRASS BALLS IS A CLIMB THAT MAKES ME PEE MY PANTS!

And also CRAP MY DRAWERS. Forgot to mention that part.

[kevbone]

You're more than welcome to get on them yourself, however, I'm sure you'd find them all trivial.

 

I have no elitism my climbing

 

Can you see your hypocrisy in your words?

[pope]

Let me get this straight, talking like a rap artist is a bad thing? You're showing how behind the times you are old fella. Aren't you getting on towards retirement age?

 

I'm younger than you. I'm pretty sure you're no fan of rap either.

 

 

I'd say a lot of folks out there can onsite or solo things much harder than the stuff you've done.

We can all agree on that. Like that guy in the Sharma video.

 

 

I'm not dissing you're Brass Balls solo.

Like I'd give a shit.

 

 

The point is lots of climbers use a combination of top roping rehearsing and practice to get themselves to a skill level where they climb really hard and can onsite tons of stuff that neither you or dwayner will ever have a shot at. All you can do is sit back in the rocking chair and diss the young uns

 

Climbing hard takes time and practice. If we really want to be pure by your standards then even modern ropes impact nature and the environment. We should all revert back to hemp ropes ehh?

 

 

Top ropes? I love 'em. And I think an enormous amount of skill can be developed on a top-rope or boulder or in a gym. Some folks think bolts and sport climbing are necessary, but we all know that's just an excuse for the trail of trash left for the next party to "enjoy".

[pope]

Sport climbing? Virtually every requirement described in the previous paragraph is bypassed. You can spend days or weeks working one pitch, you can hang, yard, top-rope, whatever you want. I think Dwayner's point is accurate, which is that 5.13 isn't really that great a leap above hard 5.11 or 5.12, when so many of the requirements of traditional climbing are removed. It doesn't matter whether you've done one, or I've done one, or Dwayner's done one. If sport climbing tactics are employed, it's no greater accomplishment than climbing a 5.12 in good style.

 

I'm going to call BS on this one. Unless it was one of those routes rated 5.13 for it's endurance demands, you're looking at the equivalent of a V7 boulder problem, most likely after you have a healthy pump from some hard 11 or 12 climbing below. Unless you are a mutant, there is absolutely no way that simply rehearsing the moves are going to make them magically happen. If you aren't that mutant, it's going to take some major sport specific training, a dedication to hard bouldering, or both to make moves that hard.

 

How many 5.13 climbers even post to this board? Isn't Marc Leclerc chasing that grade (and judging from his videos, he is sick strong)?

 

I will agree with you that it is not much of a jump to make for an onsite 5.12 climber to pull a 5.13 with sport climbing tactics. To take this argument to reduce the accomplishments of Sharma (or anyone who has pulled 5.15) is silly at best.

 

So Pope, what do you think of today's cutting edge "trad" climbers such as Caldwell and Trotter? Both have shown a high level of onsite ability, but have used the sport tactic to do near superhuman feats.

 

 

Where I added bold type to your quote, that's exactly what I've been saying. When sport climbing arrived in America, rap bolting was defended because supposedly climbing 5.13 was not possible without it. In fact, those first sport climbs were in the easy 5.13 range and they didn't represent an enormous leap above what was already being done in much better style without all of the cheating, aid and bolts. And yet, folks who struggled with 5.12 gear routes could suddenly spend half their summer hanging off bolts and rehearse the snot out of a 13a climb. And they went after it like nose candy, because the dumbed-down version of rock climbing was allowing access to grades only previously seen on the cover of Climbing Magazine.

[pope]

Pope or Raindawg. Please try to answere this question.

 

How many attempts does it take before in your mind it becomes siege climbing?

 

 

2

[pope]

It's so much easier to simply accept one's mediocrity than to invent a bag of artificial handicaps, self labeled as 'style' or 'ethics', to provide excuses for same.

 

It's also more graceful to accept that whatever you accomplished when younger will likely be improved upon by those who follow.

 

In this thread we see a couple of local yocals who weren't even well known during their peak in the small pond that is Washington judge the world's top climbers by nothing more than a bag of excuses for their own former mediocrity and current state of embarrassingly graceless aging. They are the unquestioned authorities on the subject in a rarefied association with a total membership of 2.

 

I've seen 14 year olds do a better job of poser-powered shit-talking.

 

 

Tvash, I was getting worried. You were logged out for at least 15 minutes. I assumed you were either pulling you pud or you'd become lost trying to reach REI with your GPS.

[kevbone]

Pope or Raindawg. Please try to answere this question.

 

How many attempts does it take before in your mind it becomes siege climbing?

 

 

2

 

Thanks for answering that. What if the second try comes 10 years later? Is is still siege climbing?

[pope]

Pope or Raindawg. Please try to answere this question.

 

How many attempts does it take before in your mind it becomes siege climbing?

 

 

2

 

Thanks for answering that. What if the second try comes 10 years later? Is is still siege climbing?

 

I almost flashed ROTC. I was in the little wide part, well above the crux, about 10 feet from home on a cold day when I realized I couldn't climb it with the sweater I had on. Plus I was out of gas. I waited about three years and although it seemed harder the second time, I was more determined than ever to get it and managed to nail it. Less than perfect style, my climb deserves a footnote.

[StevenSeagal]

BOOOOOO!!!!!

[StevenSeagal]

I hope you pulled the rope and left your cam behind for climbers who deserved to be up there.

[pope]

I hope you pulled the rope and left your cam behind for climbers who deserved to be up there.

 

No. They cost too much, and I had people waiting on me who were in no position to finish the climb. And they were cold. I hung on a nut, threw down my sweater and finished. With "1 PA" is the way I wrote it in my notes. The 2nd on the rope, who is now a big advocate of sport climbing and who has a mouth even larger than yours, followed the pitch with tension for nearly every move.

 

I only went back to the climb to see if my Vertical World membership was providing dividends.

[Kimmo]

I almost flashed ROTC. I was in the little wide part, well above the crux, about 10 feet from home on a cold day when I realized I couldn't climb it with the sweater I had on. Plus I was out of gas. I waited about three years and although it seemed harder the second time, I was more determined than ever to get it and managed to nail it. Less than perfect style, my climb deserves a footnote.

 

 

BOOOOOO. SIEGE CLIMBER. RETURNING TO A ROUTE YOU FAILED ON. NOT ON-SITE.

 

FAIL.

[StevenSeagal]

I hope you pulled the rope and left your cam behind for climbers who deserved to be up there.

 

No. They cost too much, and I had people waiting on me who were in no position to finish the climb. And they were cold. I hung on a nut, threw down my sweater and finished. With "1 PA" is the way I wrote it in my notes.

 

BOOOOO!!!

 

The 2nd on the rope, who is now a big advocate of sport climbing and who has a mouth even larger than yours, followed the pitch with tension for nearly every move.

 

Wow, what a loser.

 

I only went back to the climb to see if my Vertical World membership was providing dividends.

 

Looks like that siege climbing paid off. Nice send brah!

[pope]

POPE, I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES.

 

 

[RJRiha]

Sport climbing? Virtually every requirement described in the previous paragraph is bypassed. You can spend days or weeks working one pitch, you can hang, yard, top-rope, whatever you want. I think Dwayner's point is accurate, which is that 5.13 isn't really that great a leap above hard 5.11 or 5.12, when so many of the requirements of traditional climbing are removed. It doesn't matter whether you've done one, or I've done one, or Dwayner's done one. If sport climbing tactics are employed, it's no greater accomplishment than climbing a 5.12 in good style.

 

I'm going to call BS on this one. Unless it was one of those routes rated 5.13 for it's endurance demands, you're looking at the equivalent of a V7 boulder problem, most likely after you have a healthy pump from some hard 11 or 12 climbing below. Unless you are a mutant, there is absolutely no way that simply rehearsing the moves are going to make them magically happen. If you aren't that mutant, it's going to take some major sport specific training, a dedication to hard bouldering, or both to make moves that hard.

 

How many 5.13 climbers even post to this board? Isn't Marc Leclerc chasing that grade (and judging from his videos, he is sick strong)?

 

I will agree with you that it is not much of a jump to make for an onsite 5.12 climber to pull a 5.13 with sport climbing tactics. To take this argument to reduce the accomplishments of Sharma (or anyone who has pulled 5.15) is silly at best.

 

So Pope, what do you think of today's cutting edge "trad" climbers such as Caldwell and Trotter? Both have shown a high level of onsite ability, but have used the sport tactic to do near superhuman feats.

 

 

Where I added bold type to your quote, that's exactly what I've been saying. When sport climbing arrived in America, rap bolting was defended because supposedly climbing 5.13 was not possible without it. In fact, those first sport climbs were in the easy 5.13 range and they didn't represent an enormous leap above what was already being done in much better style without all of the cheating, aid and bolts. And yet, folks who struggled with 5.12 gear routes could suddenly spend half their summer hanging off bolts and rehearse the snot out of a 13a climb. And they went after it like nose candy, because the dumbed-down version of rock climbing was allowing access to grades only previously seen on the cover of Climbing Magazine.

 

Then came 5.14, and 5.15. But I'd argue that 5.15 is more the spawn and progression of bouldering than sport climbing.

 

Now the choice is there to climb in whatever way motivates you. I get it that you don't like bolts. In the grand scheme of things, I don't understand how the bolts truly affect you. Sure there will be a few climbs that shouldn't be bolted, but do you go to Exit 38 wishing that all of that choss wasn't bolted? Are the endless bolt lines of Vantage really a big deal (especially compared to trash and spray paint from concert goers)? I'm sure you still go out and climb what you want, how you want to, and still get from it what you want. If I feel like going out to Exit 38 for a low key day of bolt clipping, you would never know, nor should you care. That's the way it should be.

[pope]

POPE, I WANT TO HAVE YOUR BABIES.