The Fallacy of Periodization?

[Kimmo]

What is shows is that the Bulgarian approach was superior for lifters *doped to the gills*.

 

Nothing more.

 

and periodization is inferior in the above situation, with no evidence of its superiority or preferrability in any situation.

 

 

 

[el jefe]

In Progression you watch Patxi try this high intensity strength training to be #1 competition climber then BOOM his foot slips and he's in third. Should have trained technique more

 

"progression" actually presents an interesting juxtaposition between how patxi trains for the world cup and sharma trains to send jumbo love: patxi follows a strict, intense training regimen while sharma just goes out and does stacks of hard routes. to me this points out how little we really know for certain regarding training to improve climbing performance: both these guys are amazing climbers who've reached a similar level of performance via completely different paths. in this regard, i think kimmo has raised an interesting question about whether the periodization scheme touted by the training guide authors really is the best way to improve.

[Kimmo]

i think adam ondra falls into the "climb all the time on really hard routes" camp, but i'm not sure. i do seem to remember reading that many days will go by before any rest days.

 

he has freakishly large hands. his pinky looked as big as my index finger. in the foto i saw.

[el jefe]

in an interview with 8a.nu in 2004, ondra said:

 

"How often do you climb?

During the week I climb two or three times, usually bouldering. My partner is Martin Stranik (second in European Youth Cup 2004). I have a small climbing wall at home, as well. But there is a disadvantage - you have to climb without manesium and your shoes. Weekends we spend in rocks. I prefer rocks."

 

and

 

"Do you have a special program?

I haven't got any system, yet. I don't develop up my muscles, only naturally by climbing, I do stretching. I climb when I want and what I want. I did gymnastics for some years, but I didn't compete. Just for fun."

 

so sounds like you're right, he's probably in the "climb all the time on really hard routes" camp. which means periodization is probably not part of his plan.

[genepires]

If the goal is pure power, which the bulgarian obviously do with thier power lifting, then training more often makes sense. There is less "damage" the the muscles than higher rep training. They may train for a hour on clean and jerks but that hour may only be 10 singles total to allow the central nervous system to recover between the intense reps. It would be interesting to see what their training was like in that hour of snatches. It is obvious that they don't do more than 3 reps per set or else they would be HUUUUGE. Especially for the weight they are heaving around. and the drugs.

 

If someone who trains with the interest in power endurance or endurance would adopt a extreme routine (of sets per day and days per week) it seems like there would not be enough time for the body to recover. Hence a overuse injury or condition.

 

But the jist of this post is about periodization. There are many forms of periodazation. From what I understand, periodization is about training the multiple forms of strength. Not just pure power but size, power endurance, endurance and other forms of strength. You jump from one form to the other to get good at all forms of strength. If you don't care about the other forms, then periodization is not worthwhile. Boulderers and oly lifters fit that bill but a football players, alpine climbers, ice climbers and big wall climbers do not rely on pure power alone. They need endurance and power and others that I am not really knowledgable about. Someone like Mark Twight, MTN athlete guys or even our own Matt Alford or Mike LAyton would know. BUt the point is can one train multiple muscle characteristics without periodizing? That is like building muscle and losing fat at the same time. There may be some who can, but the general public can not. Hence the advice in sports academia for periodizing your training.

 

Maybe you are gifted in the ability to hit it day in and day out. You won't know till you try. Maybe this is what Kimmo is getting to?

Edited December 5, 2009 by genepires

[el jefe]

just because the fitness gurus are selling periodization doesn't mean it works. there's lots of theory talk here about different forms of strength, need for recovery and so on but nothing in the way of data that compares results from training using periodization and training without periodization, with the exception of the information kimmo brought in regarding the success of the bulgarian team once they dropped periodization from their program. people have been making a lot of comments regarding whether climbing is or is not comparable to olympic lifting or whether kimmo's routine is effective for a crag climber/boulderer but inadequate for an alpinist, and some of those comments perhaps have some validity. but the fact of the matter is that the efficacy of periodization as a training method for climbers has been assumed rather than proven. in addition, from what i've been able to discern, the books that talk about periodization take training programs developed for other activities (track and field usually) and then try to adapt them to climbing as if all sports were interchangeable somehow. my own experience has been that i get the best results when i go climbing a lot, and that is very different from the track athlete because a 5000m runner who only runs 5000m isn't going to perform as well as one who follows a regimen that includes speed work, etc. my feeling is that this is because climbing involves adapting to a wide number of different but similar moves requiring different applications of isometric strength titrated in such a way as to achieve a balance between tension and relaxation that is itself constantly in flux -- in short, climbing is a technique intensive activity certainly much more complicated technically than trying to run around a 400m oval

a dozen or so times. physical fitness and finger-specific exercises are certainly helpful, and periodization may or may not be significant for achieving a base of general fitness (the current craze, crossfit, seems to eschew periodization in favor of randomization) but going climbing a lot is the key to improving as a climber and going climbing on rock is, in my experience, way more effective than going climbing on plastic.

[Kimmo]

Maybe you are gifted in the ability to hit it day in and day out. You won't know till you try. Maybe this is what Kimmo is getting to?

 

for sure, that's part of it. experiment. experiment intelligently. try different things out. don't jsut read a book and then become a slave to the prescripts. i'm not saying this won't help getting you strong/climbing harder (if that's your goal): there's no doubt in my mind that following Performance Rock Climbing or Horst's book or others will improve your climbing if you follow the workouts and actually do them for a few months (depending on where you are in your climbing); trying hard to the best of your abilities etc. but is it the "best" approach, the quickest approach, the most inspiring approach, the only approach? of course not.

 

my reason for posting was simply cuz i like talking about this shit. i like musing about different training ideas, different workouts, etc. and finding out what others do and how it's worked for them in their discipline (preferrably sport climbing or bouldering, since that's my discussion!). hearing their theories, and being able to articulate REASONING, not just a bunch of regurgitated theories that they can't explain/defend. actually, i don't even care about the last point; hearing about any theory is cool. it's all up for discussion.

[Kimmo]

BUt the point is can one train multiple muscle characteristics without periodizing?

 

we as humans with this conceptualizing mind of ours love to break things into tiny little pieces, with "multiple muscle characteristics" being an example of this proclivity (i'm not getting on you; i do this too!). then we think these different characteristics are somehow exclusive of each other, not realizing that they are all connected. sport climbing a 60 foot pitch at one's limit doesn't usually call just one "muscle characteristic" into play, so why should training? perhaps we will soon discover that training maximum one rep strength for one set followed immediately by 2 minutes of the highest intensity movement one is capable of for that 2 minutes is the next miracle training for, say, that which is called "stamina", or "strength endurance".

 

i'm no paradigm of high standard virtue, but i'll quite often train burn, power and strength in the same session, or at least in the same day. i seem to be able to do this, with all three performed at quality execution level, so i keep at it (i wouldn't necessarily suggest this as a standard approach (although i wouldn't try to dissuade someone); it works for me).

 

the reason i do this is because, for the climbs i am trying, it makes no sense to work one area for a while, drop it and work on something else, and then have to build the other area back up again. all three (which are not separate in any absolute sense) are needed by me on the same climb, so it makes sense to continually, at the highest intensity, work these areas all the time as much as my body can handle. if one area is called for more than the other, or if one is a weakness, then i'll adjust the training accordingly.

 

another reason i do this is because i don't have the time or the DESIRE to hang out at the crags all day, climbing on my projects. might this be good training in general? sure, but i much prefer training at home, in my gym, in my own space, on my own schedule, listening to leonard cohen and meshuggah and the wipers on my stereo.

Edited December 5, 2009 by Kimmo

[genepires]

when I asked about the ability to train multiple muscle characteristics, I was thinking about with dumbell or barbells, not gym climbing. I can see training the different characteristics in a rock gym easily. But with external weights, I guess it would have to look like a set of 12 reps followed by a 8, then a 5 and lastly a 3 rep. I don't know if the imposed load would work any trait enough to do much good, as focusing all sets on a given goal.

 

I think there are actual differences in the muscles that are trained for certain aspects, whether it is dense mitocondria (endurance), dense contractile muscle fibers (pure strength), higher whatever that bodybuilders create to fluff and bulk up, or a highly tuned central nervous system for those 1 rep max guys. I may be wrong but I think you implied otherwise. I am probably wrong on that assumption.

 

Kimmo, how would your training look like that works the different areas?

 

While I don't attend crossfit classes, I think they follow some kind of peroidization. It might not be as rigid as standard ones that people use in a regular commercial gym. I should ask my buddy who is a crossfit instructor guy. Mtn Athlete does a period of time focused on certain traits. Like now they are on leg endurance for the ski season but they have run through power seasons and power endurance periods.

 

Wether or not it is the best way, I like the guidance that periodization offers. Just tell me what to do cause I ain't got time to figure it out on my own. And some work that is less than best is better than none or a poorly created one. So for lazy fucks like me, the periodization is a good thing.

 

I think that part of the arguement that is going on this post is maybe a difference between training for general fitness and training for specific climbing? Maybe some people are thinking GPP and others are SPP. Maybe periodization is good for GPP and the bulgarion way is good for SPP? just a thought.

[Kimmo]

yeah 3 identified muscle types, methinks.

 

my training might look like this:

 

AM power session, which might just be 10 or 20 moves at max intensity and speed, maybe some more, lately analogous to particular climbs.

 

if i feel fresh, i might then do maximum strength. repeaters on crimps on steep wall, 5 sec on 5 sec off repeats, where 3 to 5 reps takes me to failure. maybe 5 sets each hand. various other max strength things might get thrown in, like mono hangs, lock offs, underclings, wide grip stuff, particular moves of a route....

 

afternoon, intervals. this can take various forms, from repeats on boulder problems, to single move repeats on a 5 second cycle. usually the work period is from 30 secs to 3 minutes (ugh!), depending on what i'm working. usually closer to 30. let's say it's 45 secs work period, then rest will be 45 secs. then work, rest, aiming for about 5 repeats per set. close to failure at the end of work period at 3 reps, then perhaps failing on rep 4 and 5 close to end of 45 secs. the work period can consist of various repeats, just single moves, or even simply straight arm hangs on a 3/4" edge on my steep wall (55 degrees), switching every 5 secs. very quantifiable and qualifiable. and very painful. i like to train these with friends cuz it's much easier to get siked for the pain (especially for the longer intervals).

 

i might rest 20 minutes and do another set.

 

and then again in the evening, i might do another set of intervals, or power, or strength, depending on how i'm feeling.

 

i might have this type of day two or three days in a row, and usually by then i'm really needing a rest day. if i go 4 or 5 days, i notice i start to get sniffles and be on the edge of getting sick, plus i get cranky and life starts to suck. it's a fine line between maximum training and over-training. dave macleod talks about this in interesting detail, and how he skirts this line continually at times.

 

and all of the above gets varied quite a bit. i rarely have identical weeks.

[eric8]

Hey Kimmo,

 

For your recommend routine of static boulder probelms and fingerboarding. Why did you recommend such long hang times on the finger board 30 sec to 1 minute? If one was trying to improve there bouldering ability won't they want to do shorter more intense hangs? Or is your thinking that someone who only boulders v4 is not quite ready for hard training and the long hangs are to prepare them for that as well as make them stronger?

[Kimmo]

Hey Kimmo,

 

For your recommend routine of static boulder probelms and fingerboarding. Why did you recommend such long hang times on the finger board 30 sec to 1 minute? If one was trying to improve there bouldering ability won't they want to do shorter more intense hangs? Or is your thinking that someone who only boulders v4 is not quite ready for hard training and the long hangs are to prepare them for that as well as make them stronger?

 

i think i mentioned how i worked up to a minute (or more) and then upped the intensity so the hangs would be shorter, finally culminating in weighted hangs for 5 secs or so, repeated multiple times (the progression happening over a month or two).

 

yeah i think my thinking was in line with your last sentence above. i don't think one needs to approach it this way, but it seems a little safer perhaps if one works up to the intensities of hard fingerboard work, instead of jumping right in with weighted 3/8" edge hangs.

 

 

[RuMR]

yeah 3 identified muscle types, methinks.

 

my training might look like this:

 

AM power session, which might just be 10 or 20 moves at max intensity and speed, maybe some more, lately analogous to particular climbs.

 

if i feel fresh, i might then do maximum strength. repeaters on crimps on steep wall, 5 sec on 5 sec off repeats, where 3 to 5 reps takes me to failure. maybe 5 sets each hand. various other max strength things might get thrown in, like mono hangs, lock offs, underclings, wide grip stuff, particular moves of a route....

 

afternoon, intervals. this can take various forms, from repeats on boulder problems, to single move repeats on a 5 second cycle. usually the work period is from 30 secs to 3 minutes (ugh!), depending on what i'm working. usually closer to 30. let's say it's 45 secs work period, then rest will be 45 secs. then work, rest, aiming for about 5 repeats per set. close to failure at the end of work period at 3 reps, then perhaps failing on rep 4 and 5 close to end of 45 secs. the work period can consist of various repeats, just single moves, or even simply straight arm hangs on a 3/4" edge on my steep wall (55 degrees), switching every 5 secs. very quantifiable and qualifiable. and very painful. i like to train these with friends cuz it's much easier to get siked for the pain (especially for the longer intervals).

 

i might rest 20 minutes and do another set.

 

and then again in the evening, i might do another set of intervals, or power, or strength, depending on how i'm feeling.

 

i might have this type of day two or three days in a row, and usually by then i'm really needing a rest day. if i go 4 or 5 days, i notice i start to get sniffles and be on the edge of getting sick, plus i get cranky and life starts to suck. it's a fine line between maximum training and over-training. dave macleod talks about this in interesting detail, and how he skirts this line continually at times.

 

and all of the above gets varied quite a bit. i rarely have identical weeks.

 

uhhh....whend do you work?

[layton]

all of the above gets varied quite a bit. i rarely have identical weeks.

 

 

??????????????

[jon]

Just like the Bulgarian method, Mike.

[RuMR]

i think the best ever training i could think of would be to quit my job and go cragging for a month...

[Kimmo]

 

uhhh....whend do you work?

 

uhhh....look above: you don't call that work? sheezle.

[Kimmo]

Just like the Bulgarian method, Mike.

 

oh good lord, man. seriously.

[Kimmo]

all of the above gets varied quite a bit. i rarely have identical weeks.

 

 

??????????????

 

14 question marks indicate either a number of questions, or one very burning question: may I help you with either scenario?

[Kimmo]

If the goal is pure power, which the bulgarian obviously do with thier power lifting, then training more often makes sense. There is less "damage" the the muscles than higher rep training. They may train for a hour on clean and jerks but that hour may only be 10 singles total to allow the central nervous system to recover between the intense reps. It would be interesting to see what their training was like in that hour of snatches. It is obvious that they don't do more than 3 reps per set or else they would be HUUUUGE. Especially for the weight they are heaving around. and the drugs.

 

yeah i think they do mainly singles and some doubles.

 

If someone who trains with the interest in power endurance or endurance would adopt a extreme routine (of sets per day and days per week) it seems like there would not be enough time for the body to recover. Hence a overuse injury or condition.

 

couple of points:

 

firstly, would there be a need for most to adopt such a rigorous training program? i think there are only a few people who would be interested in pushing their bodies to these extremes, and to be very proficient at most activities would NOT require this type of approach.

but for those few who are, then it becomes an experiment: what happens if i commit to two weeks of training at X intensity? 4 weeks? 6 weeks? what format would this be? can i commit to dragging my ass to the wall 3 times a day, 6 days a week? can i honestly gauge the condition of my elbows, finger pulleys, etc? can i handle potentially feeling like crap for a couple of weeks? and for what? some strange goal of "climbing harder"? wtf? buahahahahaaaa.

 

 

interesting tid-bit: read recently about some chinese mid distance runners, and how they had (have?) these super intense weeks where they would run 175 miles at speed. NOT just jogging along, but shorter fast runs multiple times a day, all week. that's friggin 7 marathons a week. they won a coupla golds i think, and then disappeared?

 

 

[Kimmo]

dave macleod has a new book out. could be good, might even order it.

 

i like macleod cuz he's honest, he's been there (climbs hella good), is completely committed, and started from scratch ie was a gumby, no natural. and multiple injuries he's recovered from.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Kimmo

[el jefe]

i saw that about macleod's book, sounds like it could be interesting. also, he's actually studied exercise physiology, so should have some clue about how the human machine actually works.

 

as for how often to train, i remember malcolm smith saying you can train 5-6 days per week and i believe paxti works out many consecutive days, sometimes all 7 days. as for me, i train something almost every day, usually up to 6 days per week. some days climbing specific stuff, some days just a long run, often 2 different things in a day. i rest when i feel tired or the day before i want to climb hard. occasionally i rest 2 days consecutively, but not very often. for me knowing when to take a day off is really important. i get a tweaked finger once in a while but it's never so bad i have to lay off climbing. i try to monitor for injuries pretty closely because i'm old and it would take a long time for anything serious to heal.