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[TR] Beacon Rock - Lone Wolf and the Last Hurrah 9/12/2009


King Beatard

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i thought we were supposed to wait till febuary for the beacon rock bitch-athon? fuck, this shit is getting as paid as fund raising time for npr :)

 

kenny, have can you be so anti-acronym when FUBAR is a perfect description for the sit'iation?

 

 

who is bitching? talking about beacon is BITCHIN man....

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  • 2 weeks later...

huh?

 

ie, I'll see your Huh and raise you a huh!)

 

huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh huh That was the sound Adam was making Saturday hiking out.

 

If we could all change our inflections we'd have hah hah hah hah hah !!

 

Much better. Right kev? Right!!

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I am starting to figure out this website, so found this thread. Its really true you have to submit a application for a "fixed" pin? What constitutes a fixed pin really? Pins by their nature are not really permenant, right? I can see a app for bolts but pins? That seems to me to be taking micro mamagement to a new level, and for what reason? Where else do they control pin placements? What happens if you can't get a piece out,you are in violation and can be subject to a fine? Please don't get me wrong, I am very appreciative of those people who have put efforts into Beacon climbing and structure, but I was shocked to hear this. Not that I bring pins out to Beacon, but it just seems like a bunch of paperwork and red tape for what is achieved? What is the purpose of filing a permit for a fixed pin? Why would anyone care, especially if it can be removed? Stupid questions perhaps, but I am a little dense from banging my head against the rock and that second session.

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I am starting to figure out this website, so found this thread. Its really true you have to submit a application for a "fixed" pin? What constitutes a fixed pin really? Pins by their nature are not really permenant, right? I can see a app for bolts but pins? That seems to me to be taking micro mamagement to a new level, and for what reason? Where else do they control pin placements? What happens if you can't get a piece out,you are in violation and can be subject to a fine? Please don't get me wrong, I am very appreciative of those people who have put efforts into Beacon climbing and structure, but I was shocked to hear this. Not that I bring pins out to Beacon, but it just seems like a bunch of paperwork and red tape for what is achieved? What is the purpose of filing a permit for a fixed pin? Why would anyone care, especially if it can be removed? Stupid questions perhaps, but I am a little dense from banging my head against the rock and that second session.

 

Well, first off I'd say your perception that "Pins by their nature are not really permenant" is incorrect, that even a quick survey of Beacon or most older climbing areas will show that in fact the pins have far out lasted the older non-SS bolts, and by a long shot. Out at Beacon it would be more accurate to say "Bolts by their nature are not really permenant", because they haven't performed nearly as well as the pins. That's from the performance perspective. From the removal perspective I can chop a bolt out there faster than I can pull a pin. From my perspective, pin or bolt, fixed pro is just that and all fixed pro installations will need checking/maintanence at least once a decade.

 

Ivan's recent aid revival has employed non-clean aid, which I'd be more concerned about if they were using the tactic on lines that saw any free ascents. But non-clean aid climbing shouldn't be confused with the application of fixed pro - when I put up an FA and apply fixed pro, be it a pin or a bolt, it's just that - fixed - as in I have no intention of it ever coming out. All FAs or retro fixed pro needs to go through the relatively painless fixed pro application process as per the CMP. So offhand I'd say you're just confusing intent and application - non-clean aid climbing with the application of fixed pro - they're two very different endeavors with different intent and results on stone.

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Ivan's recent aid revival has employed non-clean aid, which I'd be more concerned about if they were using the tactic on lines that saw any free ascents.

 

 

If he keeps it up.....soon the lines that are not seeing free ascents will be. :wave:

i doubt it - it's not like i'm placing many pins at all, and when i do, they're always birdbeaks or kniveblades, and not exactly blasting you out huge holds - nor am i cleanign the routes beyond the bare minimum to aid up them :)

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Do locals want a say in how climbing at Beacon will be managed when the BRSP gets back ontrack with revising the CMP? If so, at some point someone will have to participate in the process (Kenny? Bryan? Bill? Who?). But do the status quo - and you'll get the status quo, or more likely, worse.

 

You're not in the military anymore, dude... you can stop using the silly acronyms, now!

 

Kenny -

 

Looks like the man

Acts like the man

Not the man

 

Really, JH is just tryin to help keep the rock open and reasonably safe. Noble and good causes if you ask me, which I know you didn't.

 

I'm sure he would rather turn over the fight to some other local climber but since no one is stepping up, why give him such a hard time?

 

You don't always have to follow the rules but I've learned that the more you can do to work within the rules/laws/whatever the more likely you will get what it is you want-Kenny JH and Pink to kiss and make up.

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I agree with what you say Joseph about pins. Although not all pins stay in that long, many do I guess. I don't understand why a permit is needed to leave a fixed pin, or to climb a new route? Seems like micromanaging on that level just increases paperwork, management costs, on and on. What is the benefit to a permit for a pin? Was there a big problem with people leaving fixed pins? I am not trying to be contrary, but really trying to understand the concept of a permit for a fixed pin, just seems extreme. Is there anywhere else where you need a permit for a fixed pin? It also sounds a little like what i call "make work" where a park employee needs a job, and permiting pins gives them more reason for their job? Seems like in this day and age we need to be cutting costs and paperwork. Again, I am 100% behind you and the crew that have worked with the ranger staff on Beacon, but just trying to grasp the concept of pin permitting.

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I agree with what you say Joseph about pins. Although not all pins stay in that long, many do I guess. I don't understand why a permit is needed to leave a fixed pin...

At Beacon, as opposed to say alpine granite of your choice, pins basically weld in place largely unaffected by the freeze thaw cycle. Again, prior to stainless bolts being widely affordable, pins have outperformed non-SS bolts in every respect out at Beacon. Beyond what I've written in the post above and here, I'm not sure how else to explain why the two are releatively indistinguishable as fixed protection, or why the CMP, WSP Resource Steward, and the BRSP have an interest in managing the inventory of fixed installations on the rock - this is not any different than at any number of other [publicly managaged] climbing areas around the country.

 

...or to climb a new route?

You do not need an application for a new route; you do need an application for the installation of fixed protection or anchors whether on a new route or retro'ing an existing route. The new application process described in the post above greatly simplifies the process by switching it from a per piece to a per route applicaiton.

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Do locals want a say in how climbing at Beacon will be managed when the BRSP gets back ontrack with revising the CMP? If so, at some point someone will have to participate in the process (Kenny? Bryan? Bill? Who?). But do the status quo - and you'll get the status quo, or more likely, worse.

 

You're not in the military anymore, dude... you can stop using the silly acronyms, now!

 

Kenny -

 

Looks like the man

Acts like the man

Not the man

 

Really, JH is just tryin to help keep the rock open and reasonably safe. Noble and good causes if you ask me, which I know you didn't.

 

I'm sure he would rather turn over the fight to some other local climber but since no one is stepping up, why give him such a hard time?

 

You don't always have to follow the rules but I've learned that the more you can do to work within the rules/laws/whatever the more likely you will get what it is you want-Kenny JH and Pink to kiss and make up.

 

 

kiss and make up??? i have no problem with JH i just disagree with some of his views. always had a great time climbing with him and would much rather be on a wall in a hairy situation with him rather than ur overweight self. just sayin....

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kiss and make up??? i have no problem with JH i just disagree with some of his views. always had a great time climbing with him and would much rather be on a wall in a hairy situation with him rather than ur overweight self. just sayin....

 

Olive branch to one and a punch in the gut to another! OMG 8D

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i have to extend an olive branch every time i disagree with someone... i figured JH had thick skin and really didn't need any validation. is this the part where everyone gets a blue ribbon :rolleyes:

 

 

anyway JH patronizes a lot of people... whatever that's who he is, not an evil person just another community organizer from the streets of chicago. :eek:

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Do locals want a say in how climbing at Beacon will be managed when the BRSP gets back ontrack with revising the CMP? If so, at some point someone will have to participate in the process (Kenny? Bryan? Bill? Who?). But do the status quo - and you'll get the status quo, or more likely, worse.

 

You're not in the military anymore, dude... you can stop using the silly acronyms, now!

 

Kenny -

 

Looks like the man

Acts like the man

Not the man

 

Really, JH is just tryin to help keep the rock open and reasonably safe. Noble and good causes if you ask me, which I know you didn't.

 

I'm sure he would rather turn over the fight to some other local climber but since no one is stepping up, why give him such a hard time?

 

You don't always have to follow the rules but I've learned that the more you can do to work within the rules/laws/whatever the more likely you will get what it is you want-Kenny JH and Pink to kiss and make up.

 

 

there is no fight... birds nest, rock closes/ birds fly/rock opens. :poke:

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I agree with what you say Joseph about pins. Although not all pins stay in that long, many do I guess. I don't understand why a permit is needed to leave a fixed pin, or to climb a new route? Seems like micromanaging on that level just increases paperwork, management costs, on and on. What is the benefit to a permit for a pin? Was there a big problem with people leaving fixed pins? I am not trying to be contrary, but really trying to understand the concept of a permit for a fixed pin, just seems extreme. Is there anywhere else where you need a permit for a fixed pin? It also sounds a little like what i call "make work" where a park employee needs a job, and permiting pins gives them more reason for their job? Seems like in this day and age we need to be cutting costs and paperwork. Again, I am 100% behind you and the crew that have worked with the ranger staff on Beacon, but just trying to grasp the concept of pin permitting.

 

You dont need an application. I promise if you show up on a monday and start pounding and drilling the ranger is not going to come down. Just do it. What they dont know wont hurt them.

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