kevbone Posted August 12, 2009 Author Posted August 12, 2009 No bug....you are in the wrong thread. This is the JH bashing thread. Quote
billcoe Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 Nothing is wrong with bolting. Its "how" it was put in that is the worry. Won't disagree at all with the how thing you mention. There is an "official" process and it wasn't followed. I heard about it after the fact and frankly it seemed like a great place for it although perhaps Raindawg wouldn't approve of it. Having already watched 3 people die on gear falls, speaking for myself only, I'm not interested in going to that dark place with that whole, brains and gore on my favorite climb, blood pouring out of smashed skulls like a wide open water faucet, failed mouth to mouth/CPR while the loved ones are crying and wailing right there thing again anytime soon. I'm not advocating making for "safer" climbing, because most accidents are caused by mental lapses and you CANNOT bolt your way to safety, as evidenced by the accidents on bolted routes. I'd only be advocating for using our brains and common sense, like was done in this case and then a bolt was added. He took it out, that makes the net effect zero as it balances. End of story. I challenge you to either find the placement or climb the route. As I'm still feeling soiled about the other bolt thread, I'm bowing out of this one as well. Asked and answered. Got any new Pam Anderson pics now? ps, I got a few laps in before it started raining today! Quote
JosephH Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 what's wrong with bolting? seems reasonable to protect a route if someone is going to hit the ground. someone was telling me there are some longer routes on the east face that could use quite a few bolts. why is beacon so different than any other crag, i don't get it. The only established 'longer routes' on the east face are already drastically overbolted. i say make climbing safe and save some rescue dollars and a few trips to the emergency room as well.... just a thought. The bolt under discussion wasn't about making 'climbing safe' per se, it was about not leaving an opening for some folks to say exactly what you are attempting to saying above. It wouldn't even have been an issue if Olson hadn't given the route the ridiculous star rating he did. That, combined with the fact there aren't many 5.9s at Beacon, in effect makes the climb an 'attractive nusciance' and a dangerous one at that for any intermediate 5.9 climbers who might stray on to it. The last thing on earth I want is for climbing to be safe. Just the perception of 'safe climbing' as entertainment is the problem, not the solution. Pamela is all sport, no doubt about that... Quote
pigchampion Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 i made no attempt at saying something, in my mind i said something... now u wanting to accept that or not is strictly your deal. what i want to ask is: if you feel like u made a good choice then why didn't you stick to what you were attempting to do and leave the bolt in?? sounds like you did a service to the climbing community by letting the guidebook dictate your intentions. you made a dangerous route safe and i think you should be commended for it. Quote
JosephH Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 i made no attempt at saying something, in my mind i said something... now u wanting to accept that or not is strictly your deal. what i want to ask is: if you feel like u made a good choice then why didn't you stick to what you were attempting to do and leave the bolt in?? sounds like you did a service to the climbing community by letting the guidebook dictate your intentions. you made a dangerous route safe and i think you should be commended for it. Well, it's complicated and the logic even a bit tortured - first, we weren't making a 'dangerous route safe', we were attempting to remove an anomolous situation that could provide grounds for adding lots of bolts at Beacon in the event an accident happened to someone unwary on that particular climb. And that particular climb is still a drag in that respect - but the problem isn't that the route doesn't have a bolt, the problem is Olson gave it three stars. Had that not been the case we wouldn't have even considered putting the bolt in. Second, I'm personally all for dangerous routes, my new routes tend to all be 'dangerous' to one degree or another - certainly during the FA and a couple are still 'R' rated after the fact and that's how I like them. But none of them are anything anyone would ever stray onto by accident or be in any doubt about what they are about to get into on staring up at them. I certainly understand why folks didn't like us doing it, but there were broader considerations in mind than simply that route when we did it. The 'tortured' part of it is that bolt was actually installed to insure Beacon would remain a dangerous place. Quote
pigchampion Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 the world is a dangerous place my brother full of temptation, sound as if you might have added an element of safety to beacon rock disguising it's true nature giving fellow climbers a false sense of well being perhaps inviting a greater catastrophe which you were clearly anticipating in the first place. you clearly have good foresight which is a gift in the eyes of God, perhaps your keen instincts have blinded you in such a way that you weren't looking far enough into the not so predictable future. keep watching over the flock my good brother. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. - Proverbs 23:7 Quote
JosephH Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I don't think so. The only 'false sense of of well-being' being imparted is by the guide's star-rating. Few routes at Beacon are as visually prone to 'suckering' someone into a bad situation on the basis of a star-rating as that route. It's the innocuousness of the real danger involved when combined with the rating and stars that does the inviting. I don't pretend to be able to see into the future, but I can recognize a bad setup (and potential aftermaths) when I see one. Quote
kevbone Posted August 12, 2009 Author Posted August 12, 2009 Ah....the old "blame it on the guide book" thing eh? Why do you think we did not give any stars are any climb in the ozone book? JH. Please own what you did. do not blame it on Olson's guide. Oh...I forgot, you are never wrong. Quote
pigchampion Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 this is not a right or wrong discussion my brother. guide books are just that, a guide and brother joseph was guided down the righteous path and did the climbing community right and is a good man for doing so in a manner so selfless and was beat down by the devil himself and removed that bolt which should have never been removed in the first place which shows the ignorance of mankind and how one man the keeper of the flock watching over, protecting and keeping from harms way and in doing so performing saint like acts of selflessness and kindness hoping never to stray from the flock. nd when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Revelations 5:8) Quote
kevbone Posted August 12, 2009 Author Posted August 12, 2009 this is not a right or wrong discussion my brother. guide books are just that, a guide and brother joseph was guided down the righteous path and did the climbing community right and is a good man for doing so in a manner so selfless and was beat down by the devil himself and removed that bolt which should have never been removed in the first place which shows the ignorance of mankind and how one man the keeper of the flock watching over, protecting and keeping from harms way and in doing so performing saint like acts of selflessness and kindness hoping never to stray from the flock. nd when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Revelations 5:8) Whatever you are smoking....I want some too. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 this is not a right or wrong discussion my brother. guide books are just that, a guide and brother joseph was guided down the righteous path and did the climbing community right and is a good man for doing so in a manner so selfless and was beat down by the devil himself and removed that bolt which should have never been removed in the first place which shows the ignorance of mankind and how one man the keeper of the flock watching over, protecting and keeping from harms way and in doing so performing saint like acts of selflessness and kindness hoping never to stray from the flock. nd when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (Revelations 5:8) Seahawks? Is that you? Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I thought you were Seahawks. You thought? I don't think so. Quote
JosephH Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 JH. Please own what you did. do not blame it on Olson's guide. Oh...I forgot, you are never wrong. I would ask if you are dense, or about your reading comprehension, but that would clearly be pointless 10k+ posts later. Exactly which part of "the reason we did it was Olson's star rating creating an attractive nuisance" didn't you get? That was the entire and sole reason for the bolt. Quote
kevbone Posted August 12, 2009 Author Posted August 12, 2009 I thought you hated guide books Joseph. Why would you reading them? Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I thought you hated guide books Joseph. Why would you reading them? bolts are not OK if you are a higher end face climber needing protection on a unprotectable area with runout they are OK if you are a 5.9 sporto doing 3-star routes in a guidebook. rich. Quote
JosephH Posted August 12, 2009 Posted August 12, 2009 I thought you hated guide books Joseph. Why would you reading them? bolts are not OK if you are a higher end face climber needing protection on a unprotectable area with runout they are OK if you are a 5.9 sporto doing 3-star routes in a guidebook. rich. Well, both of you are completely off-base. I only read the guidebook to communicate with Opdycke on the anchors and pins, otherwise I have no use for it whatsoever. kkk - it had nothing to do with ethics or the specific route in question, only to correct an anomolous situation where someone unsuspecting and unprepared could easily be drawn into a decking situation with no real options. If it weren't called out as a 'quality' three-star and supposedly accessible 5.9 it wouldn't be a problem. No where in the same guide description does it mention you might could easily end up being runout 40-50 feet and in danger of decking, and that reality happens to sneak up on you on that route. The route is more typically climbed by solid 5.10-.1l climbers to access a couple of serious 5.10s and not as a route by itself. Quote
pigchampion Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 don't listen to them brother, i heard mr. olson is a kind man and donated his time for a fellow climber and perhaps made a mistake by throwing out some stars unintentionally, we all make mistakes and is best not to judge as you are the keeper of the flock and have taken on that responsibility to maintain a level safe haven and take out the danger and commitment so others can enjoy the same level of asylum that we have all learned to enjoy and which you have bestowed upon us all by following the guide books message that i think clearly was a message from God to you as a chosen one to protect and watch over us like a prophet guiding us through the valley of death keeping us from harms way leading me to believe that more will come to see their fate without this bolt and sentenced to a life of pain and agony as others will follow as they meet the deck with fury as sadness takes over. Quote
denalidave Posted August 13, 2009 Posted August 13, 2009 Hey, when are the Care Bears coming to this thread anyway? Quote
Ponderosa Posted August 14, 2009 Posted August 14, 2009 ...more will come to see their fate [snip] sentenced to a life of pain and agony... as was my experience reading that fucked-up run-on sentence with almost all fucking punctuation missing. Quote
ivan Posted August 16, 2009 Posted August 16, 2009 i wanna post in this very important thread but am having a hard time thinking of something - suggestions? Quote
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