"Pickets and Dead Men"

[faster_than_you]

Post 25... Did a page top Nodder read the book?

[RuMR]

 

Readers should be aware that names and situations were changed and altered throughout the book. One example is the situation referenced by Mankato - i.e. the conversation on the glacier about knowing the deceased climber and then subesquently saying "good riddance... etc". That simply did not happen.

 

Just out of curiousity, how do you know that event did not happen?

if it did happen then LAME...

 

if it didn't happen, its in many ways worse than lame...just weak all around...

 

even if it was a private joke between the two of them, to put it into writing for all to see for all time is fuckin' lame...

 

Imagine being the deceased's family and reading something like that?? Plus, she was a damn *official*...loser...loser loser...

 

oh, and i'd call her a bitch too...

[Peter_Puget]

I got the feeling from reading the book that she was ashamed of making the statement about the deceased young man. I think it shows a lot of honesty that she portrays herself in such a negative light.

 

Also, can we stop with referring to the author as a bitch? I know some of you folks and you are better than that.

 

I don't think we know each other so I have no illusions about being "better than that." I do have several friends who have died while climbing. I am fairly certain that if it was my friend she wrote about "Bitch" would be one of the nicer things I said about her. If the story itself turns out to be complete fiction then she is beneath contempt.

[rob]

I was involved in a body recovery, once. Rescuers were jostling eachother for position so they could snap a picture of the body with their personal cameras. People suck. That's just how it is.

[DPS]

"Bitch" would be one of the nicer things I said about her.

Classy!

Edited June 3, 2009 by danielpatricksmith

[kevino]

Rob,

 

I think that is how people are when they are inexperienced with the situation. Unfortunately I work in a place where dead people are not uncommon and that is not how it is. Just a counter view sticking up for humanity!

 

I have not read this book but I'd rather not spend my time/money reading a opinions of a bitching woman. I get enough of that in my daily life.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I have not read this book but I'd rather not spend my time/money reading a opinions of a bitching woman. I get enough of that in my daily life.

 

[Peter_Puget]

"Bitch" would be one of the nicer things I said about her.

Classy!

 

Pretty lame insult DPS. Let's review the comments at hand:

 

In one part of the book, she and her boss, a guy named Mike (not sure if that’s his real name) are choppered up to retrieve the body of a climber killed by an avalanche on the Ingraham direct. When they dig him out, she recognizes they guy as a volunteer firefighter she once worked with and had eaten Thanksgiving dinner together. To prove to her boss she is “tough,” she eats some M and M’s over his body and nonchalantly says: “He was a Republican, right-wing Christian, good fucking riddance he’s dead, really.” Her boss Mike, “laughed so hard he fell off his backpack, tears coming out of his eyes.”

 

Jayb just proved how easy it is to figure out who the guy is.

 

Consider how the deadman's friends and relatives would feel reading how his former friend to impress her boss eats M&Ms over his body and says that stuff. Imagine now that you were his widow and once served the writer Thanksgiving dinner in your home and now read that. Imagine it might not even be true. How calculating. And you think I am not "classy" because I would use something stronger than "Bitch" to desribe the writer.

 

 

[Gary_Yngve]

Consider how the deadman's friends and relatives would feel reading how...

 

The picket and the fluke didn't feel bad about it.

[sobo]

Ba-dum, ching!

[pindude]

I was involved in a body recovery, once. Rescuers were jostling eachother for position so they could snap a picture of the body with their personal cameras. People suck. That's just how it is.

 

Rob,

I think that is how people are when they are inexperienced with the situation. Unfortunately I work in a place where dead people are not uncommon and that is not how it is. Just a counter view sticking up for humanity!

Having some SAR experience and being surrounded by family members in medicine, I have to second kevino. People are generally very respectful around the dead. Any gallows humor-type statements are typically made to ease the gravitas of the situation, not out of disrespect. Yours was one incident, and not a seemingly normal one at that.

 

Eating food over the guy and saying “good riddance” – I’m not sure how that can be defended in any context, whether it really happened that way or not. If it didn’t really happen that way, why put it in the book?

I guess you haven't read John Long.

 

Rescuers find dead guy. Rescuer1=>Rescuer2: His jacket looks like it might fit you.

The two stories may well be as similar as apples and oranges. On one side I don't want to support a book that is untruthful and disparaging, and on the other I'm intrigued. I'm going to have to read author Bree Loewen's actual words in their entirity before I form my own opinion of what she expressed, although I sure don't have the inside knowledge it seems at least a few of you here have.

 

As far as Gary's reference to John Long goes, I don't recall Long telling that particular story, which, if I have it right, is a true but tragic one that's been retold many times since it originally happened in the Valley.

 

Steve Roper tells the original one (read his "Camp 4"). Roper first climbed the Lost Arrow Spire when he was 18, and subsequently met young Irving Smith, who, especially once he spoke to Roper, wanted to become the youngest to climb it as a 17-year-old. In early 1960, Irving somehow fell from his rap rope near the notch and ended up 500 feet down the chimney, coming finally to rest on a chockstone. His body was considered inaccessible by the rangers, who out of respect closed the route for a year. In 1961, Roper and YC were the next to climb the Lost Arrow Chimney route from the bottom. There was much trepidation among them not knowing what they would find. Roper was on lead when he came on the desiccated remains, and to break the tension, yelled down to Chouinard, "Goddamn it! His parka doesn't fit me!"

 

Thanks, dawg, for posting this one up and starting it.

[Gary_Yngve]

I was involved in a body recovery, once. Rescuers were jostling eachother for position so they could snap a picture of the body with their personal cameras. People suck. That's just how it is.

 

That to me sounds like,

"I'm some pawn peon grunt rescuer doing jack shit, and I'm going to be cool by snapping the best picture of this compared to anyone else, because that's the only way I can feel special,"

as opposed to, "I have a fetish for dead bodies."

 

Besides, anyone experienced around dead bodies will want to keep their distance to avoid the death burp.

[Gary_Yngve]

Steve Roper tells the original one (read his "Camp 4"). Roper first climbed the Lost Arrow Spire when he was 18, and subsequently met young Irving Smith, who, especially once he spoke to Roper, wanted to become the youngest to climb it as a 17-year-old. In early 1960, Irving somehow fell from his rap rope near the notch and ended up 500 feet down the chimney, coming finally to rest on a chockstone. His body was considered inaccessible by the rangers, who out of respect closed the route for a year. In 1961, Roper and YC were the next to climb the Lost Arrow Chimney route from the bottom. There was much trepidation among them not knowing what they would find. Roper was on lead when he came on the desiccated remains, and to break the tension, yelled down to Chouinard, "Goddamn it! His parka doesn't fit me!"

 

That is the story I was thinking of (boy, did I contort it). I'm pretty sure it was in one of John Long's books, maybe Long on Adventure.

[Gary_Yngve]

And no, I'm not in it or know the author or any of the characters and I’m not a right-wing conservative. Actually, I’ve talked to rangers many times at Rainier, and always found them to be friendly and helpful, and so her description of “Mike” really puzzles me.

 

Unfortunately you ruined your original, perhaps legitimate, argument with ad hominems and biased interpretations.

 

btw, "Mike" == Mike

 

And I'd love to have a discussion on the social implications that rock stars don't have to obey rules.

 

[bstach]

Besides, anyone experienced around dead bodies will want to keep their distance to avoid the death burp.

 

What is "the death burp"?

[mtn_mouse]

As a former climbing ranger, and knowing most of the folks in this story including the author, I found it a very interesting read.

Having been there, it was easier to read the story objectively, and not let the conflict between strong-willed climbers annoy me. Perhaps the story will not be readily understand by the general public, but climbers and rescuers surely can identify with it. Lots of references to the gallows humor are made, and after years of dealing with dead people, I have seen it over and over again, and it will continue I'm sure. Putting your life on the line in very hazardous conditions, often without adequate pay or job security is not for everyone. These folks are the best and will carry out the rescues whenever called. No, not everyone will understand the book, but name calling and holier than thou attitudes are not the answer. If the book so offends you, just be glad you never had to do that type of work.

[RuMR]

"Bitch" would be one of the nicer things I said about her.

Classy!

 

Pretty lame insult DPS. Let's review the comments at hand:

 

In one part of the book, she and her boss, a guy named Mike (not sure if that’s his real name) are choppered up to retrieve the body of a climber killed by an avalanche on the Ingraham direct. When they dig him out, she recognizes they guy as a volunteer firefighter she once worked with and had eaten Thanksgiving dinner together. To prove to her boss she is “tough,” she eats some M and M’s over his body and nonchalantly says: “He was a Republican, right-wing Christian, good fucking riddance he’s dead, really.” Her boss Mike, “laughed so hard he fell off his backpack, tears coming out of his eyes.”

 

Jayb just proved how easy it is to figure out who the guy is.

 

Consider how the deadman's friends and relatives would feel reading how his former friend to impress her boss eats M&Ms over his body and says that stuff. Imagine now that you were his widow and once served the writer Thanksgiving dinner in your home and now read that. Imagine it might not even be true. How calculating. And you think I am not "classy" because I would use something stronger than "Bitch" to desribe the writer.

 

 

I hate political correctness of people like DPS...callin' a spade a spade is never wrong...

[RuMR]

As a former climbing ranger, and knowing most of the folks in this story including the author, I found it a very interesting read.

Having been there, it was easier to read the story objectively, and not let the conflict between strong-willed climbers annoy me. Perhaps the story will not be readily understand by the general public, but climbers and rescuers surely can identify with it. Lots of references to the gallows humor are made, and after years of dealing with dead people, I have seen it over and over again, and it will continue I'm sure. Putting your life on the line in very hazardous conditions, often without adequate pay or job security is not for everyone. These folks are the best and will carry out the rescues whenever called. No, not everyone will understand the book, but name calling and holier than thou attitudes are not the answer. If the book so offends you, just be glad you never had to do that type of work.

and then talk shit in writing later...

[Gary_Yngve]

What is "the death burp"?

 

When someone dies, the bacteria inside of them does not.. in fact they are not held in check. Same reason a dead cow gets bloated. Similarly, the bowels could have been released into goretex pants. At some point, the body is disturbed (for example, while bagging the body), and gases built up come out at once. If a fouler odor exists, I haven't smelled it.

 

[Peter_Puget]

Mtn Mouse you missed the reason it offends by a mile. Gallows humor isn't the issue. It's publishing it as she did.

Edited June 4, 2009 by Peter_Puget

[bstach]

What is "the death burp"?

 

When someone dies, the bacteria inside of them does not.. in fact they are not held in check. Same reason a dead cow gets bloated. Similarly, the bowels could have been released into goretex pants. At some point, the body is disturbed (for example, while bagging the body), and gases built up come out at once. If a fouler odor exists, I haven't smelled it.

Then wouldn't it be better named "the death fart"?

[sobo]

If a fouler odor exists, I haven't smelled it.

You obvioulsy haven't used the bathroom after my brother...

[mtn_mouse]

Mtn Mouse you missed the reason it offends by a mile. Gallows humor isn't the issue. It's publishing it as she did.

 

A mile?, no way. Possibly by a kilometer. The point is Bree was writing a personal dramatic recollection of her time at Rainier, not an incident report. I doubt there is word for word accuracy of events, just remembering from her point of view. Trying to villianize her for what was quoted above solves nothing. It was clear that she was upset by his death.

Knowing some of the climbing rangers it is somewhat disappointing that she was so critical of them. Glad I am too old to be in that story! Just take the story as it is, an intersting article written with someone elses perspective.

[RuMR]

hey mtn_mouse, why don't you take your advice and read the story from the perspective, oh say, maybe the man's son? or his mother...or his wife...pretty interesting, eh?? well, maybe not interesting, more like "insensitive"...and that's coming from me...

 

she was a bitch to write it that way...period...

[Raindawg]

Is this the first book published by the Mountaineers to feature "the F-bomb"?