The Right to Bolt?

Jman · July 23, 2001

So why does anyone in this world think they have a right to drill permanant holes into rock and install bolts?

Is there any difference between this and chipping holds? or chipping away holds like the guy in Fontainebleau? or spray painting the rock with the date of FA and the route name? maybe chipping your initials into the wall if you're the first to ascend it? could we paint arrows indicating the route's direction and holds?

If bolts make it "safer" (read: easier and more convient) to climb, skip the bolts and drill holes to hang a ladder. Heck, a staircase would be safer yet. If you really want safe, try staying on the trail.

Why DOES someone bolt rock?!

(to "establish a sport route" is not an answer)

If you can't climb it without defacing, damaging, altering, adulterating, or otherwise vandalizing the rock, then you weren't meant to climb it!

Have some respect for this earth.

Dru · July 23, 2001

When I bolt routes (and I have done it a few times) it is because no clean option exists for protection and the consequences of falling are either a groundfall, or ledge fall. I have placed every bolt but one on rappell with a borrowed power drill because the drill lender did not want me to risk the drill bolting on lead. I placed one bolt on lead with a hand drill and the 1.5 hours required to slam home a good 3" 3/8th bolt in the iron-hard Skaha rock was a big disincentive to do so in future.

offwidthclimber · July 23, 2001

so, are fixed belay or rap anchors okay? hell, fixed pins leave scars too. i hope you've never used pin or bolt anchors before...

July 23, 2001

I thought someone should bolt the Tooth route? A bolt every 6 feet or so on the steep spots would make it much safer too. I did not see any belay chains. Why do all the climbs at exit 38 have this equipment but this one does not?

Yossarian · July 23, 2001

There is a clear difference between manufacturing a route by chipping and placing a bolt for safety.

Without bolts and pins, Most of the world's climbs would not have been climbed or would see only a handful of repeats. By increasing the margin of safety, climbers have been able to reach a level of performance that would not be possible using only clean protection.

Bolts are (in a perfect world) placed to ascend or protect sections of rock where clean protection is unavailable.

Weren't meant to climb it? Who are you to say. One of the most inspiring qualities of humans is our ability to adapt to harsh environments through skill and ingenuity. The first pins and bolts were ingeneous ways of overcomming what was thought to be impossible.

I would recommend for you to climb routes which go all clean, no bolts, pins, or rap slings. This way you could climb in a fashion that suites your style. However, understand that fixed protection holds a significant chapter in the annuals of climbing history.

Dwayner · July 23, 2001

Brother Yossarian:

The environment is everyone's business. Personally, I think environmental ethics in climbing have gone down the toilet in the last thirty years. As I've stated before, the clean climbing revolution that occured in the 1970's, and which resulted in the further development of chocks and the invention of cams, was a revolt against the permanent alteration of the rock. The introduction and eventual normalization of sport-climbing has seemingly thrown that notion out the window.

Many people seem to think that drilling a line of bolts to create a sport route is some sort of real contribution to human progress. Climbing in general is pretty darn insignificant in the big picture, but if we're going to do it, we should at least respect the rock, and leave it nice for future generations. I assume that everyone packs their garbage out of the mountains rather than glueing it the side of the rock or leaving it shoved in cracks? By the way, there have been some great statements about the negative bolting from the likes of Doug Scott, Yvon

Chouinard and even Rheinhold Messner. If I can collect these, I'll probably post them together somewhere on the internet.

My two cents....for the moment.

- Dwayner

Jman · July 23, 2001

Dru-

"because no clean option exists for protection and the consequences of falling are either a groundfall, or ledge fall."

Well, then, don't climb it. What gives you the right to deface everyone's rock for *your* purposes?

Offwidth-

"so, are fixed belay or rap anchors okay?"

No, they are no different.

"hell, fixed pins leave scars too."

I know, and I don't agree with those either.

"i hope you've never used pin or bolt anchors before..."

I'm proud to say that I haven't.

OS-

"A bolt every 6 feet or so on the steep spots would make it much safer too."

Read my original post. If you want safer, why not install a ladder?

Yoss-

"Without bolts and pins, Most of the world's climbs would not have been climbed or would see only a handful of repeats."

So what? If you didn't climb them what do care whether or not they were climbed?

"Bolts are (in a perfect world) placed to ascend or protect sections of rock where clean protection is unavailable."

I understand the purpose of bolt just fine. I also understand the purpose of stairs.

"One of the most inspiring qualities of humans is our ability to adapt to harsh environments through skill and ingenuity."

You mean our ability to conquer and hence destroy our environment? Humans ought to try LIVING WITH the environment the way that it is. It takes no great skill nor ingenuity to drill a hole and plug it with a bolt.

"This way you could climb in a fashion that suites your style."

Then I could equally recommend that those who like to use bolts climb only in a gym so as to suite your style of 'safety' and leave the rock in it's pristine condition.

Again the question: What gives someone the right to bolt rock?

offwidthclimber · July 23, 2001

thanks for the clarification Jman. as long as you've never used any fixed gear then i guess you can say what you do without being a hypocrite. ever use slings to rap off?

however, this whole conversation is still lame. it's been hashed out here over and over. this regurgitation of the issue isn't going to change a thing.

Jman · July 23, 2001

Offwidth-

"ever use slings to rap off?"

Nope.

"this whole conversation is still lame. it's been hashed out here over and over."

Just wanted stir some fires for a boring Monday morning. It's been 'hashed' simply as an issue of "bolting-makes-it-safer/easier" vs. "bolting-damages-the-rock".

My angle is to see others' ideas of why they feel they have the right to do it.

"...isn't going to change a thing."

Perhaps not. But just maybe somebody might think about not simply why they're doing it, but what 'authority' do they have to do it.

Is graffiti wrong if I want to express my artistic ablility? (hint: not if it's on MY property... but then it's no longer graffiti by definition). Hence, bolt all you want if it's on your private property. If it's on public property...

Matt · July 23, 2001

Sunday I climbed Cocaine Crack on Icicle Buttress--- an excellent crack that I recommend to any climber new to Leavenworth. I noticed while climbing that someone had bolted the crack. This is a stellar fingers to hands crack that sucks up good gear and bolts are totally unecessary.

Obviously some climbers agreed with my opinion that the bolts were unnecessary because all of them had been pulled. Mostly there were just holes in the rock where someone had drilled, but at the bottom of the crack there was a hangerless bolt sticking out about an inch. Very strange.

I also noticed at the bottom of the Buttress there was a line of bolts on the right hand side. It was mostly a face climb, but the first 15 - 20 feet followed a finger crack up to a small bulge. This was also bolted. There are three shiny bolts all within a foot of the crack and bomber nut placements. The bolts are very visible from the road and an eyesore.

Do any local climbers know the facts surrounding these climbs? I'd sure like to know.

It was beautiful all weekend at Leavenworth and I had a great time climbing in the sun. I hope everyone else got out too.

erik · July 23, 2001

"when in doubt run it out!"

thats what i have been programmed with. for tow reasons trying to fiddle in gear that isn't there waste time and energy.

putting in gear when it is not needed creates rope drag/inefficeny

putting in gear where you don't need it, creates you out of gear you might need higher up.

so in essence don't bolt it ever.....just sack it up....most the times in the mtns you can find somthing, but obviously if you have been wasting time looking for it you probably could have moved higher up and more options......just an opinion.

jblakley · July 23, 2001

I respect your love of the environment Jman. I think it's probably safe to assume that you don't drive a car or eat meat also (cow farts). Keep up the good work.

Dwayner · July 23, 2001

quote:

Originally posted by offwidthclimber:

thanks for the clarification Jman. as long as you've never used any fixed gear then i guess you can say what you do without being a hypocrite. ever use slings to rap off?

however, this whole conversation is still lame. it's been hashed out here over and over. this regurgitation of the issue isn't going to change a thing.

The issue here isn't personal hypocrisy. Whether one has or hasn't ever clipped a bolt, banged a piton or even drilled a line of bolts is not the point and doesn't disqualify anyone from such a debate nor negate their opinion.

The debate must continue here or elsewhere. I shall do so because I hope to sway climbers to a cleaner ethic, especially those new to the activity. As has been stated many times before...we figure it out, or "the man" WILL step in eventually. I don't think that too many of us want that, even though I am confident that they will side with my view.

This "regurgitation" IS changing things. It inspired some folks to erase a dubious bolted line placed on a traditional route on a traditional crag, and in the aftermath, more people are considering the issue from its various facets. I'm sorry that you don't appreciate that.

Also, Mr. Offwidth, rappeling off slings doesn't permanently harm the environment. Slings can be readily removed and their color can be selected to be less unsightly if aesthetics is a big concern.

aloha, Dwayner

[This message has been edited by Dwayner (edited 07-23-2001).]

Cpt.Caveman · July 23, 2001

Matt I can assure you I will climb Cocaine Crack later this season and remove all the remaining bolts! AAARRRRRG they were not there this spring!

Matt · July 23, 2001

Please, I am not trying to stir up any shit.

I did not remove the bolts on Cocaine Crack, but SOMEONE DID.

What worries me more is that SOMEONE had the audacity to drill there in the first place.

I see two options:

1. Sunday morning there was a police officer sitting in his cruiser at the base of Icicle Buttress. When I asked him why, he said, "There are a lot of accidents here," so he was scouting out his potential rescues for the day.

When I asked him if he was a climber he said, "No. I know just enough to rescue people." (paraphased)

Option 1 is Officer Rescue could arrest people who drill without a permit.

Can't you just imagine him taking warning shots from the road? Hopefully he would use a rifle and scope if shooting at a driller on Coke Crack, there might be an accident if he'd tried with his side arm.

2. We police ourselves. If I saw someone drilling up there, I might just accidentally kick a rock down while hiking around the top.

Really neither option 1 or 2 is a good one. So what's option 3? I don't know. Do we start our own 501©(3)? Do we form our own ruling body and have legislation passed for the local police department to enforce? Or do we keep wild at heart and resist any kind of law that would restrict us in our pursuit of wilderness.

I'm stirring it up again and I really don't want to, but the issue is there and I can't ignore it. I can't ignore it because I climbed this really cool crack and I saw litter.

Let me tell you a secret: I peed on the rusty hanger. I had to go. It was hot and I drank a liter of gatorade while climbing up. There were'nt any parties below us and I was sure it would dry in the sun.

Maybe if we all pee on it the bolt will loosen and fall out.

rr666 · July 23, 2001

Jman - I agree with your point about trails growing back, but let me extend a bit further, how about urban sprawl? We are constantly pushing our "trails" (roads) into the wilderness. I guess that I am just sick of everyone complaining about climbers ruining the wild when everyone else is doing just the same. I don't mean to generalize, but everywhere you go subdivisions are going up in places that used to be treed, garbage is left strewn everywhere. It is just ugly what we, as humans, are doing.

Too many people take what we have for granted and treat is as they will. I agree, there will be irreversible change, and as you said, respect needs to be shown. I just wish that we, as climbers, can join together and set an example for others to help protect what we have.

offwidthclimber · July 23, 2001

quote:

Originally posted by Dwayner:

Also, Mr. Offwidth, rappeling off slings doesn't permanently harm the environment. Slings can be readily removed and their color can be selected to be less unsightly if aesthetics is a big concern.

B]

hey dwayner, just to clarify, i wasn't implying that slings harm the environment, rather probing the extent of Jman's anti fixed gear campaign to see if rap slings were kosher in his book, but not other fixed gear.

and yes, i agree - discussing particular climbs and areas can have progressive results, judging by this weekend's activities at castle rock. however, the random, all encompassing "all bolts and fixed anchors suck and using them for any reason is wrong" argument is more geared towards flamefests and battlecages.

so Jman, you've never done a climb where you couldn't either sling your rope over a tree or horn for rappelling, or just walk off?

cheers all.

EV · July 23, 2001

Matt: As far as your two or three options listed on the previous page, you need go no farther than Option No. 1.

Shoot the bastards.

Jman · July 23, 2001

Yoss-

"we did leave tons of shit on the moon."

Typical of Americans.

"Why should you care?"

Do you care that we (human) cut down thousands of acres of rainforest each day? dump tons of toxic waste into the sea each day? kill thousands of endangered species each day? Though you will probably never visit one of the rainforests, or swim in a polluted sea, or see an endangered animal, I'm sure it pains you to KNOW OF THESE and to know that humanns DO THESE THINGS with little or no regard for others.

Do you care about all the trash left behind at Everest's base camp? Does that empty can of spam sitting half-buried at a remote campsite bother you? The environmental impact of both is as you say "virtually nil" so "why should you care"? That's the lamest bunch of selfish crap I've heard.

I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it. Nor will I bolt any routes or chop any routes. Some activists triumph a worthy cause, but consider where the original problem stems from: selfishness, greed, disrespect.

"If you want to live a no-impact lifestyle, that's fine, but that doesn't mean I have too."

I'm not saying that you have do - I don't. Shoot, I drive a car, too. But ask consider your own actions and how they will impact others.

"I drive a car, landscape my yard, and clip bolts, so what?"

Yes, fine. I'm not advocating not to clip bolts. But do you drill?...

jblakley · July 23, 2001

Amen Me,

I think climbers as a group figure way down the scale as far as destruction to the environment. I think we should strive for ethical and moral standards within our own ranks but c'mon let's put this in perspective. If you're railing on about the environmental impact of drilling holes in rock you probably should not be driving a car as far as I'm concerned. I'm not saying drill away either. I'm just saying that this is an attempt for a simple solution to a very complex problem.

backcountrydog · July 23, 2001

jman

after reading the whole thing through i see a lot of good points to your argument. you have somewhat of an extremists point of view (by todays standards). if the earth could be preserved in its natural state in areas of population concentration it would be a real tribute to the intelligence of our species. unfortunately, and most obviously, we are only intelligent when you compare us to lesser life forms on our planet. as a group, forget it. sub-groups, ya. but the whole enchilada...your dreaming. i think thats why you and your 'what right do you have' post piss me off so much.

in the big picture, what is a bolt really hurting? what major impact does a climbing area really have? what is the general level of awareness of this group of users? as a climber, i have thought about this, as have many. but your not even a climber. your sitting on the outside looking in, choosing to find the negative. one thing that climbing satisfies in me, is some feeling that im getting away from poeple like you. you ARE the man. at least have some experience in the field your making judgements on. everthing we do as humans has an impact. did you drive your car to the mtns.? does the food you eat and the products you buy have packaging? do you use paper or wood products? how about petroleum? as humans we CANNOT live without affecting our environment. we feed on life in some way or another.

in the big picture, climbing is a somewhat low impact activity. we dont throw budwiser cans at our areas (or even drink the shit for that matter), we arent using motor powered vehicles for climbing rocks, and from my 10 yrs of climbing , i would say that Most climbers care about their environment (even those that put in bolts).

if your biggest bitch is about a bolt that 99% of the population will never see, doesnt that clue you in on the fact that we're not the big bad user group you want us to be? go fight to save old growth, or caribou, or whatever is in danger of becoming extinct. by all the posts responding to yours, you should see that climbers dont need you and your inexperienced point of view.

you said that you were thinking of going out and buying a rack of draws and going climbing. you should. it might be the best thing you could do.

and yes, there is a difference between bolting and all of those ridiculous examples you gave in the beginning.

Jman · July 23, 2001

Me-

You're getting my point exactly. Well said.

Jman · July 23, 2001

bcd-

Chill. These are only words intended to get you to think. Getting "pissed off" (as you say you are) kind of gets in the way of that (i.e. thinking clearly).

I don't think my views are "extremist". It seems several others here share my views.

"if the earth could be preserved in its natural state in areas of population concentration it would be a real tribute to the intelligence of our species."

Yes, it would! And I firmly believe humans ARE intelligent enough to do this. Look at all of modern technology and what man has accomplished. Amazing yet stupid at the same time. Stupid is man's greed and inability to use it proplerly.

"dreaming"?

No. I try to have a realistic and balanced view of things - that would be the whole reason I put this suject out there.

"...im getting away from poeple like you."

You wouldn't be since I hang out in the mountains, too. You just won't find me *rock climbing*. But I understand your feelings, cause I share the same motivation for going into the mountains. Oh, and, reading posts here like mine certainly won't help you in that endeavor.

"at least have some experience in the field your making judgements on"

Do I need to be a greedy capitalist corporate monger of a industrial chemical plant to have a view on the right/wrongfullness of dumping toxic waste into Puget Sound? Do I need to be a snowmobiler to have an opinion as to whether or not they should be allowed on trails?

Your "but-your-not-even-a-climber" attitude is exactly part of the problem. I'm not trying to find a negative. I'm trying to see if people understand the root of the problem.

"climbers dont need you and your inexperienced point of view"

That sounds rather extremist and rather selfish. I think you've illustrated my point very well. Let me correct you: Yes, you DO need non-climbers views as the land does not belong to just climbers (contrary to what you might believe).

[incidentally, just because I said I don't "climb" (as in *rock* climb) doesn't mean I am inexperienced with regard to the mountains. Rock climbers are not gods - even they die when they make mistakes.]

"go fight to save old growth, or caribou..."

As I said in an earlier post, I'm not going to change the world and I have no intention of it.

"as humans we CANNOT live without affecting our environment"

That is true. But to what extent? Some things obviously are necessary. The question is: Are bolts necessary?

[This message has been edited by Jman (edited 07-23-2001).]

jblakley · July 23, 2001

quote:

Originally posted by Jman:

bcd-