Afghanistan

[kevbone]

[video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyfZu4V-KY0

[kevbone]

What the F is the point of being there? The locals dont want us there......

[prole]

I thought this post was about the auto industry.

[bstach]

What the F is the point of being there? The locals dont want us there......

Dammit they're getting freedom whether they want it or not

[kevbone]

You made me laugh.

[Serenity]

Kevbone,

 

The Korengal Valley is a single terrain feature with some systemic arteries. Comprising a population of approximately 20,000 people.

 

The last I checked the population in Afghanistan is approx. 25,000,000+. So if around .08% of any given population reacts negatively to an alien foreign presence, that in your mind constitutes making a blanket statement regarding the other 99.9%. That's just ignorant, or hides a personal bias.

 

In the 4 years I have been here I have received nothing but thanks from the people of Afghanistan, and they want us to do more.

 

Some of that report is bogus, dramatized. Much of the footage he is passing off as 'combat' footage, is training related. You shouldn't believe everything you see on Youtube.

 

It is as equally dangerous for Taliban and foreign fighters to attempt to maneuver in the Korengal as it is for ISAF/US. They just hate EVERYONE. Imagine if some foreign troops showed up in Houston. How do you think they would be welcomed?

 

Consider yourself educated.

[kevbone]

 

Some of that report is bogus, dramatized. Much of the footage he is passing off as 'combat' footage, is training related. You shouldn't believe everything you see on Youtube.

 

Why do you think I believe it? It’s the internet……

 

 

Imagine if some foreign troops showed up in Houston. How do you think they would be welcomed?

 

 

That is the point to the entire occupation.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I think it's important for human rights, for national security, and for regional stability that the Taliban and like minded groups either be destroyed or peacefully absorbed into the political process.

 

Look at the ripple effect from the recent attacks in Mombai; vastly increased tensions between two nuclear powers. A single incident like this, enacted by a handful of players, can have a huge effect on the direction of history, and usually not a positive one.

 

Consider the situation in Pakistan today; how easily nuclear material could be passed into the wrong hands (Google A Q Khan) then consider that country's ssituation after a nuclear exchange with India. Not good for anyone.

 

That's why involvement in Afghanistan won the international support that Iraq did not. It's a very different situation with much higher stakes.

 

Finally, ours is hardly an occupation of Afghanistan, considering the meager troop levels. The entire 'occupation' of Afghanistan, from day 1, is equivalent in cost to about 3 weeks worth of Iraq.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[Bug]

I supported going after bin Laden and smacking the Taliban upside the head. It would still be nice to nail Bin Laden.

But a prolonged stay will probably not play well at the end. The vacume created when we leave will be too huge.

We should wrap it up in a year or so and get out while there is still some semblance of balance between war lords.

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Whether there's a vacuum or not depends on the situation when we leave.

 

We'll probably be there for some years, albeit at much lower troop levels than in Iraq, given the current situation.

[Bug]

Whether there's a vacuum or not depends on the situation when we leave.

 

We'll probably be there for some years, albeit at much lower troop levels than in Iraq, given the current situation.

True.

But the longer we stay, the more money we pour in. This will have the effect of creating an "artificial economy".

The more entrenched that artificial economy is, the greater the impact when we leave.

And it does not take much money by our standards to impact a few hundred Afgan villages.

[tvashtarkatena]

Doesn't Afghanistan export, like, 3+billion dollars worth of opium/heroin a year?

[prole]

And it does not take much money by our standards to impact a few hundred Afgan villages.

 

Somebody needs to go over there and MAKE IT RAIN!

 

[Bug]

Doesn't Afghanistan export, like, 3+billion dollars worth of opium/heroin a year?

I could be wrong, but I don't think that money is evenly dispersed.

[tvashtarkatena]

I'm going to defer to those with more personal experience in the region regarding the economic impact of our presence there.

[rbw1966]

I recommend "Ghost Wars" for an in-depth look at the modern history of Afghanistan. Fascinating book.

[Bug]

Thanks. I heard it was good. I will have to see if the library has it.

[j_b]

Brzezinski who started funding and arming islamist extremists in Afghanistan/Pakistan in the late 70's just rode in on Obama's coattails. I am sure he'll have some brilliant scheme to clean up the mess they enabled 30 years ago ... nobody's quite sure of the blowback that will entail but who's counting?

[ken4ord]

Afganistan is mess, there is no doubt about that and there is not going to be an easy solution. From what I understand there are three options on the table for the Afgan people, one go back to the days of warlord and regions controlled by small military factions (not so popular). Two go under the control of the Taliban at least there is some stability throughout most of the country (from a western view not popoular from and Afgan view more popular because there stability though it may be too restrictive and conservative). The third is to wipe out the Taliban and put in place democratic government, but really I don't that this can be sucessful there at least now. It not because Afgani's don't want there freedom, but they realize just getting rid of the Taliban is going to allow short term gains like building infrastructure (though I am not sure how much we will be able to build due to the fact that we have streched ourselves so thin in Iraq). Once we leave though and what is feared is that the warlords will eventually takeover again.

 

I really sort of believe our best bet is to get out of there, but working in conjunction with the Taliban. Try to get them to agree on adressing particular issues, of course this would have to be done through the current Afgan administration.

 

No surges or influx of troops going to stop them. Currently we have less troops than the Russians had and less Afgan troop support. The Taliban still have major controll over most of the country and have been closing in on Kabul. They have enough power to get the cell companies to shut down reception at night, track people movement through cell reception, a friend says she can't keep any phone numbers in her phone cause if they stop her and find out who she is working for she could be taken hostage. The Taliban have also still be able to pull off attacks in what are "considered safe zone".

 

I have friends living there now and who have lived there, basically everyone makes it sound like a lost cause. Out of everyone I know who has been there or is there, none seem to feel that their organizations are having a positive impact. All of them agree that they are a risk everyday they are there.

 

I am curious to see how the Obama administration is going to deal with Bush/Rumfield mess.

[STP]

Heh, they just need more American culture. No, I take that back. Not American but modern materialist consumer-based universal culture. Yeah.

 

[video:youtube]eysUcfdAszQ

[tvashtarkatena]

One thing's for sure; any future aid package should not include shoes.

Edited December 15, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[Dannible]

Afganistan is mess, there is no doubt about that and there is not going to be an easy solution. From what I understand there are three options on the table for the Afgan people, one go back to the days of warlord and regions controlled by small military factions (not so popular). Two go under the control of the Taliban at least there is some stability throughout most of the country (from a western view not popoular from and Afgan view more popular because there stability though it may be too restrictive and conservative). The third is to wipe out the Taliban and put in place democratic government, but really I don't that this can be sucessful there at least now. It not because Afgani's don't want there freedom, but they realize just getting rid of the Taliban is going to allow short term gains like building infrastructure (though I am not sure how much we will be able to build due to the fact that we have streched ourselves so thin in Iraq). Once we leave though and what is feared is that the warlords will eventually takeover again.

 

 

A mess indeed. I don't think that going back to the Taliban would work out so well at this point because there are so many warlord and northern alliance types that have been armed and funded by us for so long that they could keep a full on civil war going without our continued support. The Taliban were a pretty bad group live under and I don't think that the Afgan people would let themselves go back to living that way without a fight. Going back to the days of warlords seems like a better bet, but I would assume that the Taliban or whoever has the most guns would rise up and take everyone over. As for your third point, that's what we have been trying to do, but there is no end in sight. Afganistan has a long history of beating off foreign influence. It's a terrible situation. Hopefully someone who is smarter than most of us will come along with some better ideas.

 

Another good book on the subject is "The Lion's Grave" written by a journalist named Jon Lee Anderson, who was in Afganistan in the late 80's, and went back just after 9/11. It talks about the assassination of Ahmed Shah Masood, a northern alliance leader who seemed to have more support than anyone else in the country. He was killed on 9/10/01.

[Serenity]

Afganistan is mess, there is no doubt about that and there is not going to be an easy solution. From what I understand there are three options on the table for the Afgan people, one go back to the days of warlord and regions controlled by small military factions (not so popular). Two go under the control of the Taliban at least there is some stability throughout most of the country (from a western view not popoular from and Afgan view more popular because there stability though it may be too restrictive and conservative). The third is to wipe out the Taliban and put in place democratic government, but really I don't that this can be sucessful there at least now. It not because Afgani's don't want there freedom, but they realize just getting rid of the Taliban is going to allow short term gains like building infrastructure (though I am not sure how much we will be able to build due to the fact that we have streched ourselves so thin in Iraq). Once we leave though and what is feared is that the warlords will eventually takeover again.

 

I really sort of believe our best bet is to get out of there, but working in conjunction with the Taliban. Try to get them to agree on adressing particular issues, of course this would have to be done through the current Afgan administration.

 

No surges or influx of troops going to stop them. Currently we have less troops than the Russians had and less Afgan troop support. The Taliban still have major controll over most of the country and have been closing in on Kabul. They have enough power to get the cell companies to shut down reception at night, track people movement through cell reception, a friend says she can't keep any phone numbers in her phone cause if they stop her and find out who she is working for she could be taken hostage. The Taliban have also still be able to pull off attacks in what are "considered safe zone".

 

I have friends living there now and who have lived there, basically everyone makes it sound like a lost cause. Out of everyone I know who has been there or is there, none seem to feel that their organizations are having a positive impact. All of them agree that they are a risk everyday they are there.

 

I am curious to see how the Obama administration is going to deal with Bush/Rumfield mess.

 

 

What I know about this place is because I am here, and because I've been here for 4 straight years.

 

The way you tell it, based on 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge holds a small amount of truth, but in general it is alarmist bullshit rhetoric. Stop stink bombing this place with defeatism.

 

The problem with 'your friends' is that a lot of them are short timers, marking time until they move out to their next USAID assignment or move to a plush embassy in Europe. Or they come in here with expectations which are unrealistic. They won't be here long enough to make a difference, so in their heads it's a done deal. Do they think they are going to defeat the Taliban with the information in their cell phones? How is that making a difference. In the business we call people like that REAR ECHELON MOTHERFUCKERS. You have to get out amongst them every day, go a little native so to speak.

 

You have to have character, commitment, and spine to make this place work, or to get inside the head of this place. It's never going to be Dubai, and right across the border is a haven of nutters intent on subjugating everyone and everything to some arcane law which bears no resemblance to decency or modernity. You're dealing with caveman.

 

How do I know that? Once again, because I am here and have been here long enough to have earned a masters degree in US/Afghan relations.

 

Good luck with your opinions, but I have to raise the bullshit flag on some of it. This is a FIFTY year deal, not a 'were going to tidy this thing up in 2-3 years". Mistakes were made, mistakes continue to be made. However, with some spine things will get done here, just know it's NEVER going to be up to a western standard. Don't expect such.

 

[Dechristo]

Your dose of reality is harshin' my buzz, man.

[tvashtarkatena]

I think the Taliban's and it's like minded brethren have got to go. Their's is a cruel, totalitarian movement that has no place in the modern world, assuming, of course, that the modern world still gives a rip about human rights.

 

Personally, I would find it difficult to rail against the injustices that religious fundamentalists seek in our own country while ignoring a similar movement elsewhere with an infinitely worse agenda.