from an email...

[Alpinfox]

i have never voted for any kind of legislation that limits your right to choose.

 

It's a rare day in America when citizens vote for any legislation directly. We are a "representative democracy".

 

So have you voted for any representative that has voted for legislation proscribing freedoms and the right to choose? If you have voted for any republican in the last 25 years, the odds are good that you voted to limit my right to have butt sexx, marry a member of the same sex, or have an abortion, while also voting to have your fairytales taught as fact in public schools.

 

This is why you are getting especially harsh treatment on this website right now, right before an election. Climbers tend to be of the libertarian, live-and-let-live type and don't appreciate people telling them what to they can and can't do. The christian right have fucked up our country and are threatening to continue to fuck it up and folks on this website are pissed about that.

[Bogen]

Jesus did not force his beliefs on anyone, He wants us to choose him and to follow him on his own, not out of force!

 

What about that bit with the whip and the moneychangers? I think that is the jesus that most of your christian peers identify with: ie violence is a perfectly reasonable response to your own "righteous" indignation.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

FWIW, one or more of the framers of the Constitution were Deists. Jefferson wrote, in the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

 

the DOI isn't law. The Constitution is.

[rob]

FWIW, one or more of the framers of the Constitution were Deists. Jefferson wrote, in the Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

 

 

jefferson wasn't an atheist, but it'd be pretty funny to call him anything resembling a religious man.

 

[STP]

Ha! You're for us or agin us!

 

Deists as I understand do not believe in the idea of a personal God who injects himself in the world time and again.

 

As the atheist would say: Moral laws evolved naturally in the community of Man without the invocation of a supernatural power. One could even look at the animal world and posit the beginnings of morality, especially in primate behaviorism.

 

Nonetheless, Jefferson did include the mention of the Creator in his writing.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2008 by STP

[godskid5]

i have never voted for any kind of legislation that limits your right to choose.

 

It's a rare day in America when citizens vote for any legislation directly. We are a "representative democracy".

 

So have you voted for any representative that has voted for legislation proscribing freedoms and the right to choose? If you have voted for any republican in the last 25 years, the odds are good that you voted to limit my right to have butt sexx, marry a member of the same sex, or have an abortion, while also voting to have your fairytales taught as fact in public schools.

 

This is why you are getting especially harsh treatment on this website right now, right before an election. Climbers tend to be of the libertarian, live-and-let-live type and don't appreciate people telling them what to they can and can't do. The christian right have fucked up our country and are threatening to continue to fuck it up and folks on this website are pissed about that.

 

you're absolutely right. i have yet to see one candidate that stands for my exact beliefs. i also don't care if he/she claims Christianity. i personally don't think someone can possibly hold any high level political office and not ever compromise their morals or beliefs. so i look at the whole person, what they stand for on the issues.

i also understand when people are upset because they feel their rights are being infringed upon. i would also be upset if someone tried to limit my right to worship as i choose. i do not understand the assumptions, the vulgarity, and the hatred though. but i guess some people just express their anger in different ways. i also don't like when someone assumes to know what i think and believe, or that because i choose to believe something different from them that it makes me and ignorant moron. isnt this the same thing that upsets you all about what some of the christians think about you?

it goes both ways, i just ask that you all don't make it personal and one sided.

[tvashtarkatena]

i have never voted for any kind of legislation that limits your right to choose.

 

It's a rare day in America when citizens vote for any legislation directly. We are a "representative democracy".

 

So have you voted for any representative that has voted for legislation proscribing freedoms and the right to choose? If you have voted for any republican in the last 25 years, the odds are good that you voted to limit my right to have butt sexx, marry a member of the same sex, or have an abortion, while also voting to have your fairytales taught as fact in public schools.

 

This is why you are getting especially harsh treatment on this website right now, right before an election. Climbers tend to be of the libertarian, live-and-let-live type and don't appreciate people telling them what to they can and can't do. The christian right have fucked up our country and are threatening to continue to fuck it up and folks on this website are pissed about that.

 

you're absolutely right. i have yet to see one candidate that stands for my exact beliefs. i also don't care if he/she claims Christianity. i personally don't think someone can possibly hold any high level political office and not ever compromise their morals or beliefs. so i look at the whole person, what they stand for on the issues.

i also understand when people are upset because they feel their rights are being infringed upon. i would also be upset if someone tried to limit my right to worship as i choose. i do not understand the assumptions, the vulgarity, and the hatred though. but i guess some people just express their anger in different ways. i also don't like when someone assumes to know what i think and believe, or that because i choose to believe something different from them that it makes me and ignorant moron. isnt this the same thing that upsets you all about what some of the christians think about you?

it goes both ways, i just ask that you all don't make it personal and one sided.

 

So cry us a river, already. You're not getting a drubbing because you believe in God. You're getting an appropriate bitch slapping because you've made statements concerning certain subject, such as evolution, that reveal your fundamental ignorance on the subject. You're being criticized for your postings, not any assumptions about your beliefs.

 

And don't confuse hatred (what kind of drama queen are you, anyway?) with recreational dismissal. Now go pray or something and STFU about science. Stick with what you know.

Edited September 26, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[godskid5]

well thank you for clearing that up.

[Stefan]

Um.

 

The Government did not technically give AIG $85B. I thought they gave them a short term loan. Now, if AIG defaults on the loan...then of course they gave them that money. However, AIG was going to go into default for paying interest on other loans...but AIG has long term assets they could not withdraw on to pay for the short term loans. AIG had a choice of choosing chapter 11 bankruptcy or a short term loan from the US. I thought Chrysler many years ago had a short term loan from the US Government too....

 

This short term borrowing is also only for a two year period. IF things work out, the US government will have the money back plus interest.

 

If AIG could fail, like ANY business, then the government would lose the $85B.

[RuMR]

again, not all who call themselves christians follow the biblical meaning of what we are supposed to be like. i have never voted for any kind of legislation that limits your right to choose. yes, i believe homosexuality is a sin, but then again i am a sinner also, so who am i to judge or speak out against it? i believe abortion is murder and a sin, i also believe the bible where Jesus says that "anyone who hates his brother (some translations say "calls his brother a fool") is guilty of murder"! Again, who am i to judge? Jesus did not force his beliefs on anyone, He wants us to choose him and to follow him on his own, not out of force! He said “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”

Who am i to try to regulate others beliefs or actions? i will tell people what i believe and why till i die, but i will never try to force anyone, or ridicule anyone into believing as i do.

So please, do not lump me in with the evangelists you see on tv, or on the news. do not assume i hold the same beliefs or support in any way someone who is trying to force his/her beliefs on you or anyone else. ask me what i believe about a certain issue, and i will tell you. if you do not agree, that is your God given, constitutional right, and i will respect it!

ok...i can respect that...just want to keep religion, any kind, out of our public institutions...

[RuMR]

i have never voted for any kind of legislation that limits your right to choose.

 

It's a rare day in America when citizens vote for any legislation directly. We are a "representative democracy".

 

So have you voted for any representative that has voted for legislation proscribing freedoms and the right to choose? If you have voted for any republican in the last 25 years, the odds are good that you voted to limit my right to have butt sexx, marry a member of the same sex, or have an abortion, while also voting to have your fairytales taught as fact in public schools.

 

This is why you are getting especially harsh treatment on this website right now, right before an election. Climbers tend to be of the libertarian, live-and-let-live type and don't appreciate people telling them what to they can and can't do. The christian right have fucked up our country and are threatening to continue to fuck it up and folks on this website are pissed about that.

:tup:

[godskid5]

i actually agree with that. we cannot have government regulating religion, nor religion regulating government. if we do, who's to decide whos religion will be the one to regulate it? all the people who want religious influence in government would be deeply disheartened when whatever religion it is conflicted with their personal beliefs. you see it in the different denominations, they fight with each other over very basic issues in the bible. how would it be if one religion had influence, yet not the other? all around the world you see what happens when religion influences government.

[rob]

i actually agree with that. we cannot have government regulating religion, nor religion regulating government. if we do, who's to decide whos religion will be the one to regulate it? all the people who want religious influence in government would be deeply disheartened when whatever religion it is conflicted with their personal beliefs. you see it in the different denominations, they fight with each other over very basic issues in the bible. how would it be if one religion had influence, yet not the other? all around the world you see what happens when religion influences government.

 

Then you agree that gay marriage should be legal? The only argument against it is a religious one.

[godskid5]

actually there are many people who are very non religious who are against it also, but they are in the same line as racists who are just afraid of anyone who is different from them.

 

i dont understand how gay marriage is illegal but abortion is not.

i say if the people want to make gay marriage legal, let em.

 

i have religious arguments against a whole lot of stuff. but how do you enforce that on a people who dont believe the same as you? what is a sin to me, is not to another, therefore why would they do as i do? same applies here, if we are not going to follow Gods law in all things, why apply to just this one?

 

so no, i do not believe gay marriage should be legal, i do not believe abortion should be legal, i do not believe in evolution, or the big bang, i do not believe a lot of things, but it is not my place to attempt to force someone else into my way of thinking.

i will therefore not marry a man, i will not have an abortion, i will not teach my kids evolution or the big bang. that is how i will live my beliefs. that is how i will honor my God.

i will be happy to befriend a gay (married or unmarried) man/woman, i will treat a woman who had an abortion no differently from a woman who had a child, i will not put down anyone who believes in evolution or the big bang. i will treat them all equally as i expect them to treat me.

[rob]

Nice dodge.

 

But will you vote for a gay marriage resolution?

 

Yes or no.

[hafilax]

How about if they give just call them common law roommates? Really it shouldn't be an issue of marriage but of commitment to be together. How many sexless marriages are there out there? It's not a issue of sexual orientation but about legal rights given to people committed to spending their lives together.

[rob]

If gays can't call it marriage, then heteros shouldn't be able to call it that, either.

 

Otherwise, you get this weird Jim Crow thing going on. Heteros get marriage, but gays get "common law roommates?"

 

phhh

[godskid5]

i will not vote, no, period. again, i am not going to force my beliefs on anyone. if i vote for it, i am going against my beliefs, but if i vote against it i am trying to force them on others.

i know the argument of representation, who i vote for will not be determined by whether or not they are for or against gay marriage or abortion. they will be for who i believe will be the best over all for our country, and my family. who will do the best job in the long run.

and by the way, from another thread about a poll/mock vote by abc, obama won out over mccain by me. i do not vote along any party line. i am against having to declare a party at all. on some issues i think the republicans are great, on others the democrat. i am for the democratic view on more and more things recently by the way, such as economy, taxes and health care. which are pretty high up on my list of importance.

and the republicans, who have always been sortof the "christian" party, are by far not that anymore. i do not like making the rich richer, and alienating ourselves from the rest of the world. but, they still have a few areas i am behind them on.

so again, not voting by party. voting my conscience instead.

[rob]

i will not vote, no, period. again, i am not going to force my beliefs on anyone. if i vote for it, i am going against my beliefs, but if i vote against it i am trying to force them on others.

i know the argument of representation, who i vote for will not be determined by whether or not they are for or against gay marriage or abortion. they will be for who i believe will be the best over all for our country, and my family. who will do the best job in the long run.

and by the way, from another thread about a poll/mock vote by abc, obama won out over mccain by me. i do not vote along any party line. i am against having to declare a party at all. on some issues i think the republicans are great, on others the democrat. i am for the democratic view on more and more things recently by the way, such as economy, taxes and health care. which are pretty high up on my list of importance.

and the republicans, who have always been sortof the "christian" party, are by far not that anymore. i do not like making the rich richer, and alienating ourselves from the rest of the world. but, they still have a few areas i am behind them on.

so again, not voting by party. voting my conscience instead.

 

You will vote no? How is that NOT forcing your beliefs on gays?

 

Holy christ, I don't like banana bread, but I wouldn't vote to make it illegal.

 

I could give a shit if you're religious or not, but stupidity I can't abide.

[rbw1966]

i will therefore not marry a man. . .

 

Larry Craig is going to be soooooo disappointed.

 

i will not have an abortion

 

If I understand your gender correctly, this was never on the table for you anyway sport.

 

You might want to step away from the keyboard.

[mkporwit]

i will not vote, no, period. again, i am not going to force my beliefs on anyone. if i vote for it, i am going against my beliefs, but if i vote against it i am trying to force them on others.

 

You will vote no? How is that NOT forcing your beliefs on gays?

 

 

Rob, I think he said he would abstain from voting, since siding with it one way or the other would violate his beliefs.

[rob]

i will not vote, no, period. again, i am not going to force my beliefs on anyone. if i vote for it, i am going against my beliefs, but if i vote against it i am trying to force them on others.

 

You will vote no? How is that NOT forcing your beliefs on gays?

 

 

Rob, I think he said he would abstain from voting, since siding with it one way or the other would violate his beliefs.

 

What the hell? I was working myself into a libtard self-rightous frenzy. Why do you have to go and ruin it for me?

[godskid5]

i will not vote, no, period. again, i am not going to force my beliefs on anyone. if i vote for it, i am going against my beliefs, but if i vote against it i am trying to force them on others.

 

You will vote no? How is that NOT forcing your beliefs on gays?

 

 

Rob, I think he said he would abstain from voting, since siding with it one way or the other would violate his beliefs.

 

right, i said i will not vote, the no was for emphasis.

[rob]

That's too bad. I'd vote to protect the rights of a lot of things I disagree with. But I guess I'm just a different kind of american, though.

 

 

Oh snap! ZING!!

[godskid5]

i will therefore not marry a man. . .

 

Larry Craig is going to be soooooo disappointed.

 

i will not have an abortion

 

If I understand your gender correctly, this was never on the table for you anyway sport.

 

You might want to step away from the keyboard.

 

just making a point, but yes, you are correct, i can not have an abortion. what i meant in that was i would not encourage, or suggest one to someone. i would discourage if i was in a place to do so. if my opinion was asked in the matter by someone seeking one, i would tell her my thoughts and beliefs, in a loving kind way. but if a woman chose to do so, i would be there for support and comfort (assuming i was needed).i would not then treat her any differently.

nor will you ever see me out picketing at an abortion clinic.