Finally. God Defined.

[General Zod]

sez:

 

snakes? yikes!

[kevbone]

As an atheist, I'm basically Satan. Is Satan a righty or a lefty?

 

Satan is for sure on the right. Mcsatan

[tvashtarkatena]

As an atheist, I'm basically Satan. Is Satan a righty or a lefty?

 

You are "basically" overly self absorbed. Which resembles one of Satan's attributes but does not make you Satan.

 

Try harder.

 

Well, you've only met me 3 times for less than 5 minutes, so I'm not sure how much of an authority you are on my copious psychological issues. Still, you did give me a pair of Rivas, once. Did that constitute providing material support to Satan? Doesn't that violate the PATRIOT ACT somewhere?

 

Shouldn't we stop pussy footing around with this War on Terrorism crap and step it up to a WAR ON EVIL?

[ericb]

It's true that a certain part of me has been likened to an Anaconda....

 

If that were true, your wife would probably want you around the house a bit more than is currently the case

[kevbone]

Shouldn't we stop pussy footing around with this War on Terrorism crap and step it up to a WAR ON EVIL?

 

 

:tup:

[tvashtarkatena]

Other way around: Like a few other climbers I know, my wife wants me around more than I want to be around, at least during weather like this.

Edited September 12, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[Bug]

As an atheist, I'm basically Satan. Is Satan a righty or a lefty?

 

You are "basically" overly self absorbed. Which resembles one of Satan's attributes but does not make you Satan.

 

Try harder.

 

Well, you've only met me 3 times for less than 5 minutes, so I'm not sure how much of an authority you are on my copious psychological issues. Still, you did give me a pair of Rivas, once. Did that constitute providing material support to Satan? Doesn't that violate the PATRIOT ACT somewhere?

 

Shouldn't we stop pussy footing around with this War on Terrorism crap and step it up to a WAR ON EVIL?

 

In your case, 15 minutes is all it takes.

Just like GW, I know a vat of oil when I see it.

 

FYI; I am assuming words are for fun here.

I don't want to scare off any libtards.

[tvashtarkatena]

You have two mommies.

[JayB]

Just thought I'd briefly chime in to say that I read "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" while spending a month camped out in the Icicle, and think that the book would be an interesting read for all participants in the thread.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170

 

The incontestable fact that the modern scripture is a compendium of insertions, deletions, mistranslations, and outright inventions probably won't trouble most Catholics, since in some ways strenghten's the Church's argument for the use of accumulated scholarship and tradition to serve as a translator or intermediary between god and man. I can't help wondering, though, how this would affect anyone who purports to believe that the bible is the infallible word of god. Seems like this would present some challenges even for those who are more given to the "personal relationship with god" variant, since combining a fallible text with fallible reason exculdes virtually nothing from the spectrum of beliefs that might constitute "true" Christianity.

 

 

 

Interesting stuff.

 

[underworld]

but what does that have to do with housing prices?

[Bug]

The status of the bible was elevated after the Councels of Nicea and even more so after the Quran.

Jesus spoke against "codefiying "his teachings.

[godskid5]

we believe that a God who can create this universe we live in is also capable of keeping the bible true to its meaning throughout history.

here is a christian review of said book i found interesting. i don't even bother reading these kinds of books anymore, ill just stick with the reviews. and yes, i do read the secular ones too.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3452

 

[tvashtarkatena]

I grew up a Catholic and went to Catholic school for my first 8 years. We were taught about the evolution of Christianity from it's Jewish roots in a fairly historical way. As I'm sure most of you know, priests must study a considerable amount of philosophy and theology from around the world during their training. I really didn't have much of a problem with the Catholic church, my parish was a good one, it's views were liberal (in the historical sense) and it helped the community a lot. There was no real focus on punishment or the 'threat of non-believers'. There was no fear of outside ideas, and discussions in class were pretty open, although we did try to stump the teachers as often as we could. Mainly, you were suppose to strive to be Christ-like, because, apparently, he was a pretty good guy in the eyes of my church. Sure, we had the May Procession with the BVM and all that, but, as kids, we were into the pageantry. Communion was 'a mystery', so there was little point in devlving into the mechanics of eating Jesus' body, which was really a little unleavened wafer embossed with the Catholic cross, the origin of which was its own mystery, but it was just something you did and didn't think about a whole lot.

 

Jesus was the thing; he was the example. As long as showed God's love by loving your fellows, you were pretty much good to go. God hung way back. You could pray to him, sure, but you'd never be so conceited as to expect him to do anything for you. He was a busy guy. This mega church contractual idea of Be Pious, Get Rich disgusts Catholics.

 

I met my first Evangelical at boy scout camp in 6th grade. When he told me about his literal belief in the bible, my reaction was, and still is

 

"You've really got to be kidding."

 

He was a counselor and a complete intolerant, pious prick. We immediately began to immitate the guy, which wasn't hard to do, because he stuck his butt out when he walked like he had a life-sized cross stuck up his ass. He called me Buckey Beaver, because I had this big front teeth at the time. I just called him Shitbird.

 

I didn't meet too many in high school, although I had a bunch of Mormon friends, but they're pretty different. The Mormons always wanted to lure you into going to Temple, but it wasn't a really hard sell, and they were OK folks. They did absorb a few fucked up kids and straighten them out a bit, which was fine. I just flashed my 'get out of Temple free/Catholic card' and that was that.

 

I didn't meet any more evangelicals until college, and at that point I realized that this wasn't just a few kooks with insane parents. There were a lot of them. Every one I met was like the first: real dicks, and a lot of them were obviously crazy, too. We used to have one guy, who was training to be a nuke submarine officer, walk around the halls yelling "Hallelujah, Armaggedon's comin'! I can feel it, Lord!" I shit you not. They prayed before everything, probably even before they took a dump, but mostly they prayed ostentatiously and loudly in public, which seemed pretty show-boat to my more low key Catholic eyes.

 

During my adult life I've met more and befriended some. I used to run with one guy every day, and we'd have heated discussions about the nature of truth every day, but he was unlike the others because he was intellectually inquisitive and engaging. He prayed for my salvation, of course, but didn't tell me until I was just about to leave the company. Pretty class act. Unfortunately, he flew his plane in to a mountain with his son aboard shortly after that.

 

Although the Evangelicals I've met have mostly been complete douchebags to a man, I can deal with that. They generally don't know shit about science, a love of mine, and they don't care. That's their problem, not mine. It's their totalitarian legislative agenda and disregard for our Constitution that really frosts my ass. I consider that crowd the enemy of American freedom, so I do whatever I can to keep their agenda out of our public life. If they want to brainwash their kids, that's their business, of course, but I do not want these kooks having anything to do with governance in a secular country. Unfortunately, that has not been the case of late.

Edited September 13, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[ivan]

Just thought I'd briefly chime in to say that I read "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" while spending a month camped out in the Icicle, and think that the book would be an interesting read for all participants in the thread.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170

 

The incontestable fact that the modern scripture is a compendium of insertions, deletions, mistranslations, and outright inventions probably won't trouble most Catholics, since in some ways strenghten's the Church's argument for the use of accumulated scholarship and tradition to serve as a translator or intermediary between god and man. I can't help wondering, though, how this would affect anyone who purports to believe that the bible is the infallible word of god. Seems like this would present some challenges even for those who are more given to the "personal relationship with god" variant, since combining a fallible text with fallible reason exculdes virtually nothing from the spectrum of beliefs that might constitute "true" Christianity.

 

 

 

Interesting stuff.

finally! a book i read b4 jayb!

 

that book's a bit dry in places, but the overall message is cool - i like that the author was a life-long and super-intense born-again type who dedicated his life to learning all of the various dead-languages the oldest biblical sources use, and through his studies came to conclude that it's uber-retarded to try to live by the literal word of the big book, given that, when you get down to it, there's no way to know what in the hell the original words even were.

[godskid5]

If those are the kinds of people you've known I can understand somewhat of where your frustration comes from towards christians. I don't understand what appears to be the utter hatred though (you may not hate us, but it comes across that way in your posts). I prefer to have a discussion based on a mutual respect deserving of two people with two different ideas, instead of the name calling and such.

Growing up Catholic like you did (I don't pretend to know about Catholics as I am not one) I assume you know Matthew 6:5-7, it reads:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words."

 

I have met many "christians" who pray just like this. Like they want people to see how "holy" they are. We are not supposed to be that way.

I have a love for Christ, and I want to share that with others. If they do not want to hear it, that is fine, but I will talk about it. If we are ever climbing together and I bring it up (which I do not always do) just tell me to shut up, you just wanna climb, and I would respect that. I do not believe in forcing your beliefs on anyone else. They must come to Christ (if that is what they want) on their own, or else it is for nothing.

I also do not watch the "christian" tv channels, i'm sure theyre not all bad people (not up to me to judge them), but i do not agree with the way they go about spreading their message. Although, I would like to be able to say to my wallet that it was a fat wallet full of money, and have it appear full of money all of a sudden, as I have heard preached (which is one reason i don't watch them, i was sent some stuff from a friend on a you tube clip, pretty sad to watch, yet funny that they had so many people sending them money!!)

[ivan]

we believe that a God who can create this universe we live in is also capable of keeping the bible true to its meaning throughout history.

here is a christian review of said book i found interesting. i don't even bother reading these kinds of books anymore, ill just stick with the reviews. and yes, i do read the secular ones too.

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3452

you really should read at least the review then of the book jay mentions - he goes through a ton of examples of where differences crop up between various versions of the bible and shows exactly how they were intentionally changed by scribes intent on solving specific theologic arguments going on at the time of the translation - interestingly, the changes required in order to push forward the argument were extremly minimal, oftentimes only a single word.

[godskid5]

I did read a few reviews, one was a short one by the author, and the other was the one linked to above. I do know that some changes were made here and there in the bible. I also know that some versions are more "correct" than others. At one point he said himself that It is important to not only listen to others preach/teach about the bible, but to study it oneself, to see where the changes were, what they were, what the interpretation means, and what the original greek and or hebrew was. I am no bible scholar (or any other kind of scholar either!) but i do try in my limited way to understand the bible and its translated history. I also do take a lot on faith! Believing in God is all in faith! Jesus said "blessed are those who don't see, and still believe"! Believing in God, the bible, and Jesus is all on faith. There is no absolute, undeniable, scientific proof of it at all. Just as there is no absolute, undeniable, scientific proof that it is not true.

So, I read my bible, I study my bible, and I choose to believe what it says.

Most of the textual discrepancies, Ehrman acknowledges, matter little, but some do profoundly affect religious doctrine. But then again, go to a Baptist church, a Catholic church, a Protestant church, a Mormon church, their religous doctrine is mostly all based on the same bible, yet their doctrines vary widely also. So, if different denominations can't agree on the bible we have, what then? Faith!! Read for yourself, study for yourself, have someone preach and teach you yes, be be active in checking it for yourself, and pray! Faith!

[tvashtarkatena]

Jebus, quit with the "why are you so angry?" drama queen shit. I don't get angry on this forum; I rant and rave. It's good clean fun, really. I guess you'd have to be an Irishman to understand. Look, it's like this: when we get angry, we blow shit up, OK? Do you see anything blowing up here? OK then.

 

I couldn't care less that Shitbird didn't give me the Wordworking Merit Badge because I was five minutes late for the first session. Through years of counseling, I've been able to get over that. As I've stated repeatedly, here's what frosts me:

 

If you're trying to push your Christian agenda through our supposedly secular legislature, and I'm not saying YOU are, you're my enemy. Period. You're the enemy of American freedom, because the Constitution says American freedom has nothing to do with any particular religious belief. Practice all you want, don't force it through legislation. That means people not like yourself are not forced to have children they don't want, can marry who they want, don't have to pray in schools, and don't have to waste their kid's precious education time listening to why bananas and Right Hands prove the existence of a Divine Engineer. If you're not down for the live and let live thing, it's jihad time, baby. In that case, I couldn't care less about how nice you are to puppies and small children. Hitler was a dog lover, and he was very nice to his secretary. Grosse fuckin' deal. (Obvious over the top reference for humorous purposes only, in case you're taking this too seriously).

 

 

Edited September 13, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[godskid5]

On this we agree!! Our country was founded on religous freedom, meaning you can worship as you choose. We should not have a government telling us who to worship, or who not to worship. That is a personal choice for each to make. I am very much NOT political. I do not believe a high ranking politician can claim to be a christian, and yet not comprimise his/her morals. If you get to the level of gov. or presiden, or even in congress, you end up putting other things above your morals, and then you have a conflict, and from what i have seen, politics always wins!

[tvashtarkatena]

The model for what I'm talking about was Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, who, although he personally believed the gay lifestyle was immoral per his strongly held religious believes, nonetheless instituted a massive AIDS prevention program because it was his professional duty.

 

I'm all for everyone being involved in politics, religious and otherwise, as long as they respect the Constitution in doing so and support policies that recognize a separation of church and state. Live and let live. Unfortunately, this just isn't happening these days. This 'take our country back' bullshit from the Evangelicals is just a bit too much.

 

Look, I've had friends who believe magic mushrooms have a collective alien intelligence. Whut.fuckin.ever, dude. I can 'tolerate' a wide variety of ideas and beliefs, although I reserve the right to think some of them are really stupid. What gets me is the political thing.

[Tokogirl]

not everyone who claims to be "christian" is following Christ. If they are not displaying the qualities of Christ, they are not his true followers.

The Bible says that others will know us by our love. If you meet someone who claims to be a christian, but treats others poorly, or puts people down because of their beliefs, etc.. then that person is not understanding what following Christ is all about.

 

A follower of Christ will live by this:

One of the Pharisees tested Jesus with a question, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" (Matthew 22:36 NIV). Jesus replied, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:37-40 NIV).

 

It is sad to me, but a majority of the people I have talked to who don't belive in God have been turned away from christianity because of something a "christian" had said or done. There are many people out there who claim to be christians who are doing more harm than good. People are getting turned away from God on a regular basis because of the hypocrisy in the church. I know many people who claim to be christians, but yet when you see them in their daily lives, you would never believe it!

 

If any of you have been hurt, put down, or treated poorly by a "christian" in any way, I am deeply sorry for that. Just remember, not all people who profess Christ are that way. Just as not all Atheists put down christians and bash us every chance they get. I know some very nice Atheists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and many others who I respect, and respect me. I want to return the favor.

 

 

We, as humans, are faluable and therefore I know that anyone as a Christian, being human, will be prone to human "weaknesses". So, to say there are good examples out there is very true but to really get an idea of Christ or God seems, as with most beliefs, to come down to faith in what Christ or God stands for. No one can say, including you, that you are free of "issues" or offense to someone. We all have done something that is a "sin" - correct??

[tvashtarkatena]

BTW, I didn't turn away from Christianity. I found the truth. For me. And I'm very, very glad I did.

 

And I didn't drop God from my daytimer because of anything some big bad Christian had done to me. THAT, my friend, is a complete myth. No one stops believing God, a very big step, because some believer was a big meanie.

 

I stopped believing because, the more I thought about it, and I thought about it quite a lot, the less I bought it. The process was pretty much a more adult version of my cessation in waiting for Santa to come down the chimney. That's not a joke, actually. It's pretty much the same process.

 

Just like I used to believe that America was the Good Guys. Nope. We're a bunch of grubbing, greedy fucks, just like the rest of the world. We're not the freest country in the world, we're not the greatest country in the world, hell, we're not even the richest country in the world anymore. God's not on our side and never was. We're just who we are. Another weird fucking place that does things it's own weird fucking way.

 

So, please, save yourself some noodle power and just stop pretending like you know what's going on inside the heads and hearts of those who don't believe. It's not a tragedy. It's what we want. It's what's right for us. We're OK with dying and rotting and not sitting on a cloud forever looking lovingly at God. This is a great planet and a great life. It makes up for it. Really.

 

Besides, if I was gonna be a believer, I'd be a Mormon. Their women stay beautiful a lot longer than Evangelicals, and WAY longer than Catholics.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[tvashtarkatena]

We all have done something that is a "sin" - correct??

 

I try to lie, cheat, steal, or fornicate at least once a day, to stay in practice.

[Tokogirl]

We all have done something that is a "sin" - correct??

 

I try to lie, cheat, steal, or fornicate at least once a day, to stay in practice.

 

Tvash,

Glad to hear you are like the rest of us .

Hope you didn't think I was trying to sell ya anything as I am not a Christian.

I have beliefs, a belief system, morals, values, etc. that I try, but often fail, to live buy.

Bon Chance!

[tvashtarkatena]

I know something about that.

 

No, I was just responding to something Godskid said earlier.

 

Have a great weekend!