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kevino

Other People's Project - Ethics

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Yes but that should be balanced with the concept that other peoples' failures do not justify giving up.

I do not have any problem with leaving some of the obvious lines for posterity to develop. We cannot know what tools they will have at their disposal. Our perspective is limited by our own arrogance. We think we know that what we have now is it.

Bolts may someday be obsolete and we will be trashed by ALL for being so short sighted as to not leave anything undrilled.

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Think of it as your art work....Bolts costs money.....a drill costs money.....by the time it is ready for leading you have put 4 weekends in a row of work in and a $100 worth of hardware (including a % of the drill).

 

Here's some real art for you....and you can use them over and over again, without making holes in the rock:

 

225215_Stoppers.jpg

 

 

Projects? Too bad. If it's on public property, first come first serve. That's the chance you take.

 

 

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Rob, different rocks and different types of rock are different.

 

I understand your notion that rap bolting is cheating, but I would have to say that a strict adherence to ground-up first ascents often produces lousy crag climbs. In Darrington, almost all of the best routes there have been established through some combination of ground up and rappel bolting or exclusively rappel bolting. All of what I consider to have been the worst eyesores there, including several that are peppered with bolts and that virtually nobody climbs or has any affinity for, were established purely from the ground up.

 

Like I said before, I don't think there's anything wrong with this. After all, cragging is just practice, anyway, isn't it? There's nothing wrong with TRing, either, and that's definitely cheating. I can totally see how rap-placed bolting can result in superior practice climbs.

 

My point was, that leading a route with pre-placed bolts is, to me, the same as leading a route with pre-placed cams. It's hard for me to imagine someone shaking their dick at me trying to keep me off of their "new classic" when the pro's all been pre-placed.

 

What if I pre-place all my gear and just clip into it with quickdraws on lead? Can I call that a redpoint? That's what sport-climbers are essentially doing. So it seems silly to hear so much hullabaloo about someone getting in the way of their shot at eternal glory by poaching the FA on exit 38's latest gym climb.

 

Ooooh snap! I've done it now. Flame away! :D

Edited by rob

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Think of it as your art work....Bolts costs money.....a drill costs money.....by the time it is ready for leading you have put 4 weekends in a row of work in and a $100 worth of hardware (including a % of the drill).

 

Here's some real art for you....and you can use them over and over again, without making holes in the rock:

 

225215_Stoppers.jpg

 

 

 

 

What if its a blank face with no cracks to place the nuts in? If you could not use them at all Rain....how could you use them over and over again? Just saying......

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windbag (aka raindawg) must have been on vacation because it certainly took a long time for him to get around to telling us how it is supposed to be done.

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windbag (aka raindawg) must have been on vacation because it certainly took a long time for him to get around to telling us how it is supposed to be done.
With so many bolts to chop, he must not have much time for spray.

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windbag (aka raindawg) must have been on vacation because it certainly took a long time for him to get around to telling us how it is supposed to be done.
With so many bolts to chop, he must not have much time for spray.

 

bingo.gif

 

Sit down, little men.

wrestler.jpgwrestler.jpg

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BTW rain….the “work of art” I was referring to was not the line of bolts but the finished product of a new route. That could very well be all trad…….

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raindawg must be getting old...he used to be able to spray and chop bolts. now his spray is increasingly lame, so i'm guessing he also can't chop bolts like he used to...

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Wee Man as actually a pretty kick ass skater. I saw him at Warped tour one year.

zQesOrkXpWg

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windbag (aka raindawg) must have been on vacation because it certainly took a long time for him to get around to telling us how it is supposed to be done.

 

 

raindawg must be getting old...he used to be able to spray and chop bolts. now his spray is increasingly lame, so i'm guessing he also can't chop bolts like he used to...

 

Thank you for your wonderful contribution.

 

To quote yourself:

this website was hijacked by a bunch of knuckleheads a long time ago and has turned into a forum for cranks and malcontents. i think a lot of these people rarely if ever climb but nevertheless don't see that as an obstacle to "bashing and tearing down" or pontificating about climbing ethics, etc...

 

Doesn't look like you're helping much...and where do you fit in here?

 

Now when you're done polishing your quick-draws and scrubbing the goo off your crash-pad, you'd better get going: your carpool to Exit 38 is waiting and your li'l buddies are getting impatient.

MIDGETS.jpg

 

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Dude, what's up with making fun of the little guys? :tdown:

 

I agree. How belittling of them!

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he's just another bitter old fart who doesn't understand that his time is long, long past and no one cares anymore what he has to say -- especially since he just keeps saying the same thing over and over and...

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what about stealing threads with stupid pictures?

 

SCoco= yep bolting on lead at FC would be comedic if not suicide as the majority of face climb rocks in the coulee is crap and deffinitely needs route prep (ie route crafting/loose rock removal).

 

Another point to be made is many ground up face climbs are considered very bold climbs. (ie bachar yerian Tuolumne) Placing bolts on lead is very difficult and takes a different sort of mindset that many climbers do not possess.

 

as for peoples projects: one should contact the route prep person prior to climbing line and ask permission. Time money spent are a big deal and should not be shunned. Sometimes life gets in the way for someone...

and we are merely wasting time in life while climbing.

If multiple attempts to contact the person proove futile then the climb should be considered abandoned and open to new fa attemptees;

flat out stealing a proj/or stating times up, now its my turn is (in my opinion) merely a frenchie bullshit attitude towards climbing...

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I think if someone is working on a sweet all trad line you should bolt it every 6 inches and aid it on the bolts.. thats good ethics

 

Also if someone if bolting a sport route chop it and solo it

 

 

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Maybe it's just me, but rap-bolting has always felt like cheating. Its easy for me to say, perhaps, since I'm not a "crag developer" and have never "put up a route". Nevertheless, I'm a big believer in ground-up "ethics."

 

It's so area and even line dependent: if you disagree with that assessment I have a blackberry bush blanketed, loose dirt and rock covered, possible death block encrusted potential route I want to watch you try to get 10 feet up on. 35' total. There is no visible cracks, but maybe......just maybe, you can dig something out. However, the thorns are thick, and as they are hanging, you will be working your way directly into them, and will be unable to pull them out easily. If you approach the other way.... pretty simple stuff.

 

I'm not kidding. If you really feel it's the only way that is not cheating, contact me.

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Maybe it's just me, but rap-bolting has always felt like cheating. Its easy for me to say, perhaps, since I'm not a "crag developer" and have never "put up a route". Nevertheless, I'm a big believer in ground-up "ethics."

 

It's so area and even line dependent: if you disagree with that assessment I have a blackberry bush, 10" of loose dirt and rock covered, loose death block encrusted potential route I want to watch you try to get 10 feet up on. There is no visible cracks, but maybe......just maybe, you can dig something out.

 

I'm not kidding.

 

Top-down and ground-up approaches to climbing new routes rarely come into conflict, I think, in any serious way. The worst I can think of is when a poorly protected but otherwise good route is soloed and then someone else comes along and bolts it. That happened to a friend of mine who bolted (on lead) a Bachar solo at J Tree with no idea the route had been done. The conflict got resolved peaceably talking around a campfire.

 

Mostly, though, the rap whatever versus risk ethic live in different neighborhoods and both schools produce good climbs.

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flat out stealing a proj/or stating times up, now its my turn is (in my opinion) merely a frenchie bullshit attitude towards climbing...

 

Well said.....

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