Advice Needed: Fat Lead Rope w/ Thin Tag/Rap Line

[TimL]

I’ve been pondering this system for a while. I’m getting ready to buy a 9.4 x 70m rope and I’m thinking about buying a 6mm or 7mm tag line. But to be honest, I’d like to here from people who have used this type of rope system for alpine rock, as well as to rappel. I’d like to hear your opinion about pros and cons of the system and if it’s actually that much better than two doubles. When I compared it to the double 60’s I have, the two 70’s weighed in about the same. The advantages that I can think of is being able to rap longer, run pitches together, and not having to mess with a second rope at the belay as the smaller rope I would be stuck in the pack. But when I weigh these factors together it really doesn’t come to be a deal breaker. There aren’t many places where I need to rap 70 meters. Now, leading with two 8.1 x 60’s is actually fairly heavy once you get to the end of a pitch so the lighter lead rope would be more comfortable. Anyways I’d like to hear people’s opinions and experiences.

 

I’m also interested to hear opinions on how safe this system is to rappel on. Obviously you have to position the knot properly and make sure it’s dressed really well, but anything else that you might or might not take into consideration when rapping? Also, would you go with a 6mm or 7mm tag line? How much does that matter? I’ve rapped plenty of times on a 10mm and an 8 mm ropes tied together so I know the dynamics, but I guess having two skinny ropes is what prompting my questions. Also, what about the smaller tag line cutting over sharp edges on a traversing rap? Serious concern or logical worry. Last, does the type of anchor that you’re rapping from determine the amount of attention that should be paid? For example, I wouldn’t worry as much rapping from an anchor with rings then with a nest of slings. Logic being the strain on the heavier rope might be able to pull the knot over the webbing therefore increasing the imbalance between the fat and skinny rope, but it would,t be able to pull the knot through rings. I have no experience with this so I’m wondering if these are valid concerns or totally illogical or if there is something else I’m not thinking about.

 

The last thing which would be an inherent negative would be if the fat route got stuck on the rap and you had nothing but the small tag line to lead out on the free the stuck rope. But that’s sort of a given risk that you take with this system.

 

Thanks for any and all advice. I’ve never seen anybody use this system over hear for what it matters.

 

Edited May 11, 2008 by TimL

[bwrts]

Rappin on a 6 or 7 mm w/9.4mm would be a bear in my opinion due to the small diameter tag line.

 

Is the weight difference and amount of time pulling up the rope really that problematic?

 

Leading with skinny twins or doubles seems more trouble-some to me due to rope catching friction in cracks.

 

I prefer the one skinny lead rope and leader draggin the rap rope Method. Only have to worry about one rope in the belay and protection systems.

[TimL]

Rappin on a 6 or 7 mm w/9.4mm would be a bear in my opinion due to the small diameter tag line.

 

 

Actually thats what I'm wondering. Would you have to have a serious death grip on both ropes? Or would a back up prussik and a smaller rappel device, like a smaller reverso, help to correct the pull of the bigger rope?

 

 

[Blake]

RE: rapping on a single rope and 5/6mm cord: another option is to to tie an 8-on-a-bight in the skinny cord, near where the ropes connect. Clip a locker biner into this fig.8 and run the single rope through this locker and down. Then just rappel on the single and when you finish pull the skinny line. If you are rapping off a runner with no rap ring or chain link, this can be problematic as the knot in your ropes slips over the runner and can't be pulled with the skinny cord.

 

I don't think you'll need to make 70m rappels in the alpine very often, and climbing 70m pitches (rather than 60m) doesn't seam super important either. I think often in those cases you can just simulclimb part of the pitch. After trying a couple methods, i think 2 60m 8mm ropes is the way to go. You can bust out just of them them for the glacier/wet sections, have a full rope in case one gets damaged, do 60m rapps without using some skinny static cord, etc. I really like the PMI verglass, which are certified for use as twin or doubles.

[tradhead]

Tim - Are you back in the states? Heard you were in Spain from your friend Dave a while ago. I've climbed with both systems a fair bit and feel that they both have merits in their respective applications.

 

Fat line/skinny line - better for routes with a lot of steep climbing and a few raps. Put the skinny line in the seconds' pack while climbing = less rope weight for the leader to haul and simplified rope management. Using a static rap line will save on weight overall without compromising safety. It's best to always pull the static line due to knot travel issues, so if you have to do a bunch of raps retieing the knot at every station is annoying at best.

 

Two 8.5-9mm half ropes are best for slabs with a rap descent (D'town/Infinite Bliss) You can let them hang down at belays without worrying about them getting hung on flakes, and rapping is simplified by being able to leave the joining knot.

 

I don't think that a 70m tag line is merited unless you're new routing and are setting your own stations. Most established routes are set up for 50 or 60m raps depending on when they went up.

 

I don't have a ton of experience with skinny half/twin lead lines on rock, but have some significant concerns regarding edges and 8 mm lead ropes. My preferred alpine set-up is a 9.2 mm x 60m Mammut Revelation lead line (55 g/m = 7.26 lbs) combined with a 8mm Beal static rap line (5.3 lbs by my home scale = 40 g/m). No worries about cutting either rope while rapping, and the Mammut Teflon coating equals zero rope drag on lead at the end of a full pitch, unequaled by any of my other ropes.

 

My half ropes (9mm no less) have gotten worn pretty quickly on rock and have heard a few horror stories of 8mm twin ropes getting thrashed after a single multi-pitch rock route. With the fat line/skinny line theory at least you only need to buy one new rope instead of two.

 

I'm not climbing anywhere your standard so I may by full of ####; just my two cents. Anyway, PM me some time if you want to meet up.

 

Will

Edited May 13, 2008 by tradhead

[dmuja]

 

Ive used a 9.8 x 60m with a 200 ft 6mm for raps.

 

Issue are..

 

The small line blows around alot in the wind and is prone to tangles. Best to feed them out of a holster setup on yr harness or use a pack. The skinny line is also prone to damage easily from things like crampons or sharp shit in general, once it's nicked, its pretty well retired. Most folks think something is going to be out of whack with uneven feeding etc, but I haven't had the slightest issue with uneven feed. Always good to use a prussik backup on any rap really but it does feed a little quickly - until you get to the tangles. I put a "rap ring on-a-twist" on the fat side rope just below the knot (I use triple fishermans - might be overkill though) to prevent the joining knot from jamming or traveling past the true functioning rappel ring. You'll find that the joining knot does travel as you descend. Finally, the knot I use can bring down a lot of shit or maybe jam easily so you don't want to lead up to the jam on a 6mm cord really.

 

All in all, if you practice with it and work out the kinks, it be a good light n fast set up I think but not without some possible real negatives - a jam could be really bad.

[fern]

the skinny tag really starts to hurt your hands to pull after multiple rap pulls too.

 

ON ROCK!: w/ a 70m lead line, and a competent partner, I think that the fastest overall (up and down) is going to be doing 35m raps, maybe simulrapping lower-angle stuff, but dialing your team rap skills. There is so much clusterfaffidge involved in managing long ropes I think you quickly start to lose the advantage of more vert-loss per rappel in a time sense.

HOWEVER I have destroyed a 70m BEAL rope by simulrapping ... so I hope you don't buy a BEAL

 

on LONG alpine ice routes, then having 2 times a long rope is worth it for time savings on the rappel since management is much easier.

[TimL]

Hey Will -

 

Nope, not back in the States yet, but I'll be back in July, finally. Can't wait.

 

Thanks for all the replies. Keep them coming!

[Ishmael]

I have used a 6mm with a 9 something lead line in the past. I was not a fan. The 6mm tangled/twisted really easily, fed faster so you had to always pull from that side… Basically, all of the negatives that people have already said… And just looking at how thin it looks in the middle of a long rappel does not give a lot reassurance. Just my opinion…

[RuMR]

Tim,

 

I've use a 9.4 Beal combined with an 8.5 half rope...seemed to work pretty well...Regarding Fern's comment, we set up to pull the fat rope, not the thin rope...

 

the beauty of using the half, is, if need be one has the option of actually using it as a half rope for a wander pitch or two...or if the main rope gets stuck or otherwise compromised, you can double the skinny and lead up to clean the stuckage (haven't had to use this)...a static tag loses these options for the same weight...plus, i presume you already have doubles or halfs for ice??

 

my worthless 2 cents...don't climb anymore so take it for what its worth...

[RuMR]

oh yeah...don't think i'd carry more than a 60...

[tradhead]

I've always set the rap up to pull the thin cord after watching the knot migrate downward when I had it rigged the other way. With the thin line as the pull line, the knot jams in the rap ring/chains.

 

I wouldn't recommend this set-up for rapping through webbing without chains or rings - too much relative motion between the two different diameter ropes (for my comfort level anyway).

 

I haven't experimented with using the second line strictly as a pull line. I'm concerned about the knot/keeper biner getting hung up, especially on loose/alpine terrain. I'd be curious to hear from those with direct experience if this is actually an issue in practice.

[RuMR]

never had a problem with knot migration...

[ken4ord]

I don't like tag lines either, I would rather use twins or doubles set-up. Not that much weight is saved by using a tag line. Blakes suggestion on rapping is how I have used tag line, using that method to go down to a 5mm tag any thinner and it becomes to hard to pull.

[mike1]

I think the pros of the half rope climbing system out way the cons. I haven't had problems with the ropes catching in cracks or with friction, at least no more than with a single rope. One of the main benefits is the ability to avoid the angles causing rope drag friction in your lead rope as it runs from anchor to anchor. The added safety factor while pulling slack up to clip is notable too - you fall on the other line without the extra slack. Then the obvious benefit of full length rappels. In self rescue scenarios the list of benefits goes on and on. However, it seems to me like this system is more at home in the alpine environment, whereas single ropes are more suited for face climbing where you’re more likely to follow a straighter line.

 

Edited May 26, 2008 by Mikester

[layton]

Tim I use this exact system sometimes. Check out my rappelling set-up to keep you safe.

 

The only situation I use this system in is when the climbing would be too hard, or cumbersome to use double or twin ropes. I use a 6mm rap line. I've actually started using an 8mm dynamic rap line recently since I've had ropes stuck where I've had to lead up with the 6mm (gulp!).

 

One way to keep the snarl factor down is to stuff the 6mm into a stuff sack (with the end tied to the stuff sack). This zips the rope right out, although re-stuffing it sucks balls.

 

To make sure you don't die if the 6mm get the chop while rappelling, try this....(hard to explain). This requires you to always pull the 6mm first.

 

1. Put the knot so the skinny rope is on the end you pull and UNDER the anchor (kind of like when you sport climb the rope should be clipped so the rope goes under the biner).

 

2. Since there will be rope slippage, make sure that the knot won't sneak it's way into the anchor and get jammed.

 

3. Just above the rope connection knot but below the anchor(flieshmans knot works well ...i.e a re-woved fig-8) tie an overhand on a bight in the fat rope.

 

4. Clip a biner into the overhand on a bight, and clip the fat rope on the other side of the anchor.

 

It's hard to visualize, but if the skinny rope gets the chop while your rapping down, you'll now be fully on the fat rope as if doing a fixed single rope rappel since the overhand with the biner will be cinched around the anchor.

 

5. You must pull the skinny rope (sucks) in this situation. The plus side is the fat rope has less chance getting stuck tumbling down, but if it does...guess what you have to lead on -

 

Hope that helps,

Mike

[layton]

RE: rapping on a single rope and 5/6mm cord: another option is to to tie an 8-on-a-bight in the skinny cord, near where the ropes connect. Clip a locker biner into this fig.8 and run the single rope through this locker and down. Then just rappel on the single and when you finish pull the skinny line. If you are rapping off a runner with no rap ring or chain link, this can be problematic as the knot in your ropes slips over the runner and can't be pulled with the skinny cord.

 

Sorry Blake didn't see you post this. Q? Why do you tie the knot in the skinny rope, instead of the fat rope just above the knot?

 

I sometimes will use tape to make the hole smaller in the rap station so the know doesn't migrate up through the anchor.

[kevbone]

TimL. I use a 10 mm or 10.2 mm to lead on an 8 mm static line for rappelling. The system has worked great for climbs needing two ropes to get off of.....for me at least.

[TimL]

The deal is that I bought a 70m 9.4 for general rock climbing. I also have double 8.5's which I use for alpine.. What I am/was looking for in the 70 with a thin tag line is a rope system that is lighter and somewhat as versatile as the 60's. When I matched the weight up between the 70's and the 60's they both clocked in at the same weight. The only real advantage is 10 more meters of rope with the 70. But I'm not sure thats a big advantage as it might go unused. With the 60's they are heavier but you have the versatility of two ropes on wandering/traversing ground and not having to mess around when rapping. In my case, I think the best is to either go with the two 60's for an alpine rope system, or go with just one 70 and plan not to come down. Either way, if I end up using this system in the Bugs this summer, I'll post my obsevations. Thanks for all the replies!

[Sol]

just my 2 cents:

 

i've used a 70 m lead line with a skinny little tag line and i though it rocked. it definetly excels in new routing, exploratory activities. strung out on crap rock after a couple of spicy pitches we were able to reach terra firma in one, long-ass, thankgod rap. the nice thing is the tag line just stashes away until you need it. i've used the knot jam technique with OP rap rings. I think the system really excels when your pushing yourself on hard and steep climbing when big falls are likely. much better to have a thick cord catching whippers than skinny lines turning your 20 foot falls into 30 footers. like people have said stack the tag line in a stuff sack, static 6mm should work best, and have the first climber down do a lengthy test pull.

[Blake]

RE: rapping on a single rope and 5/6mm cord: another option is to to tie an 8-on-a-bight in the skinny cord, near where the ropes connect. Clip a locker biner into this fig.8 and run the single rope through this locker and down. Then just rappel on the single and when you finish pull the skinny line. If you are rapping off a runner with no rap ring or chain link, this can be problematic as the knot in your ropes slips over the runner and can't be pulled with the skinny cord.

 

Sorry Blake didn't see you post this. Q? Why do you tie the knot in the skinny rope, instead of the fat rope just above the knot?

 

 

Hey Michael, I don't think it matters if you tie the loop knot in the fat or skinny rope, as long as the knot is near where the ropes connect and doesn't jam in the anchors. Your method (having the loop knot in the fat rope, between the connection and the anchors) might be better. Another idea is to leave one of the tails extra long on your rope-connecting knot, tie a loop in this tail, and clip your 'biner through there. Either way you can be safe if the tag line is cut, or you can rap on the fatty single and unfurl your tag line as you descend.

 

After the first climber raps, the second climber can situate the knot to prevent any jamming, and have the climber down below hold the rope in place to keep things clean.

 

This is the best thread in a while, because it's actually a serious discussion about climbing that doesn't involve stupid arguments and insults. Proving that there can be some redeeming value in cc.com! We deserve a collective pat on the back or group hug.

[fern]

Either way, if I end up using this system in the Bugs this summer, I'll post my obsevations. Thanks for all the replies!

 

I suspect you will find in the Bugs that with the possible exception of very rarely travelled or completely new routes, that there are few lines that require rappells of longer than 30m (i.e. a single 70m lead line will do great). The rap-routes on the major spires are well fitted, even for 25m raps in some cases. Personally I would rather carry the weight in the form of sacrificial tat and leave-behind nuts/pins to fill in the occasional missing station. You can use these as part of the rack while climbing, whereas carrying a tag line has limited second purpose.

[eldiente]

I've used a 9.2 and a 6mm tag line to rap with. Yes, you have to hold on tight and it is a little scary at first. Works great though as the tag-line stays in the pack until needed.

[mattp]

I more or less agree with Fern about the Bugs, but I don't think I'd plan to do a route on the west side of the Howser Towers or one of the longer routes on the other spires (s or e face of Snowpatch or, say E face of Bugaboo) without two ropes. The Bugaboos are an unusual climbing area in that it offers almost a cragging experience in a spectacular setting.

[cman]

i have used a 9.8 and a 7mm static line and it has worked out great. yes you have to pull the 7mm and needs fixed anchors but it works well most of the time. the best part is the climbing on a single rope, which i prefer to double ropes.

 

we did IB with double ropes and the rapping was easier, also we got a rope stuck and had to lead back up on one of them, something i would not been happy to do on a 7mm static.

 

no one system is going to work for everything, luckily my partners seem to have doubles when they are required.