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Zoran

best of cc.com Carbon Neutral Denali Climb May 2008

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Hi CC-ers,

Could you please visit our site when you have moment?

 

This expedition site is the proof that you can achive a lot even on the intermediate route as WB. If you are genious like our exp leader...

 

He did something for all of us, we couldn't even imagine at our first coffee meeting several months ago.

 

http://cleanenergydenali08.com/

 

Zoran

Edited by Zoran

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Itinerary from the website:

 

"Day one - Fly in" :lmao::lmao:

 

You'll be off to a great start! :rolleyes: Remember to practice what you preach while worshiping at The Church of Global Warming. Simony and indulgences don't cut it.

 

Good luck with your climb though. :tup:

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Conservation groups and alternative energy investments are all there for you to support directly, without the industry and marketplace of carbon offsets.

 

Someone please explain to me why the concept of carbon offsets is so important. Besides acting as a scoreboard for which the privileged (whether it be an individual, a corporation, or a country) may justify to themselves their involvement in activities the rest of the world does not get to enjoy.

 

I would prefer direct regulation of carbon-producing activities, and a world where people's actions represent the values they promote publicly.

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The current state of the global warming debate strikes me as getting McCarthyistic in nature. It wouldn't surprise me if pretty soon committees will be set up to suss out and arrest non-believers.

 

This hypocritical climb just proves it.

 

Say hi to the Climbing For Christ team when you get there. Perhaps you can do some collective hand-wringing and say a few hail Marys together.

 

Forgot to mention, despite my criticism of your motives, have safe and successful climb.

 

Edited by Bigtree

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Ha, ha, ha...Wiegele world's helicopters don't generate gobs and gobs of carbon now do they?

 

How about the carbon neutral climbing team earn some well-needed carbon credits to compensate for Wiegele's inexcusable anti-enviro behaviour by rowing a boat with themselves and their gear up to Anchorage with stops along the way to plant some west coast trees in BC and on the panhandle; then, hike/climb in from there. Now that's something worth bragging about.

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Thank you for wishing us successful climb. It's my biggest mountain so far.

 

Thank you for explaining our motives too.

I was not aware of them. I was thinking we doing well. I don't think so "deep" like you guys. I am not very educated...

 

I was just thinking that neutralizing our carbon offset during expedition is not bad idea. I will even purchase carbon offsets for my family for 2008 from ERA. I calculated it from here:

 

http://www.econeutral.com/carboncalculator.html

 

I am sorry for that.

I even did so many small things last few years to minimize my impact to the planet thinking I am doing well. I don't own 4x4 and I ride my bike to work.

Oh, well ... To late to change that.

 

Regarding religion and motives...

 

I came from Eastern Europe to Canada 10 years ago. There, I unfortunately grew up without God's presence. I had great childhood and many years after even without Him.

 

It's to late for me now. I am lost soul. My deep roots are in Christianity (Orthodox version) but I am not religious.

 

Since you linking our Carbon Neutral climb with Church of Christ believe me, I am looking forward to meet them there. I remember their post here at CC and, honestly, I would like to say hi to them. Sorry for this but I support their motives. I hope you don't mind?

 

For me it's hypocritical that many climbers who grew up in religious families in US and spent many, many Sundays in Church are so bitter about their motives now.

 

At the same time when you talk about their motives with Russian, Yugoslavian, Slovakian, Polish or Chinese immigrants (climbers) who came from fomer communist countries (here in Vancouver) they all accept their motives as a personal and reasonable choice.

 

How come some "evil communist lost souls" support them? How come that you who understand religion better than we will ever be able to (even if we try our best) make fun of them?

 

Z

 

 

 

Edited by Zoran

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Ha, ha...very good Zoran.

 

You'll like Wiegele's by the way. I used to work nearby in the late 1980's and would stop in periodically to check out his operation. It was spectacular then and I'm sure its only gotten better.

 

 

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The current state of the global warming debate strikes me as getting McCarthyistic in nature. It wouldn't surprise me if pretty soon committees will be set up to suss out and arrest non-believers.

 

This hypocritical climb just proves it.

 

Say hi to the Climbing For Christ team when you get there. Perhaps you can do some collective hand-wringing and say a few hail Marys together.

 

Forgot to mention, despite my criticism of your motives, have safe and successful climb.

 

:tup:

 

Z - Here's a thought: Go ahead and throw the money away on "Carbon Offsets"...and cancel your trip. Or, even better, climb the mountain Erden style--by bike and foot. Seriously, though; don't let the global warming cultists infect your being or plague your psyche with irrational guilt. They're a mentally ill lot. Fly in. Fire up your MSR. Have a good time. But please DO bag your shit, don't piss on the next guy's snow melt, and pick up after yourself. Enjoy!

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Maybe his motivations are not guilt-based, but simply, he's acting on what makes him feel good.

 

A nice, warm & fuzzy mix of extravagance and conservation.

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Any climb of Mount McKinley should be possible without sponsors or web pages. Good god, how much sposorship does it take to get to Alaska, and get on a 185?

 

I agree with you.

 

I felt bad when we approached them. My clothes and my gear was adequate mostly for PNW. When I started thinking about Denali climb and realised how much I have to buy I sat down with my wife and had long chat. I have a two kids too.

 

She knew it will affect us financially but she was very supportive. I think she got little sick over the years from all my movies, Internet surfing and my mountaineering books. I don't have many inerests in my life. Mountains are in the epicenter.

 

We all here know what WB on Denali is. It's not Colin's Denali Diamond! It's not Marko Prezelj's Cassin one day ascent! It's intermediate mountaineering objective.

 

So, when our leader sent letters to couple of companies we thank him and went shopping and gear whoring. I sold some stuff on MEC gear swap and bought new more appropriate gear.

 

And...

They responded. In communication with them we found all of them environmentaly sensitive.

 

We first got free breakfasts from very small privately owned company from Vancouver Island.

http://www.naturespath.com/

 

We got Spot device (but we have to purchase service). I love this small unit and I don't like cell phones or sattelite phones on Denali (or any mountain).

 

ERA offered carbon offsets for 5 of us from start to the end of the climb.

www.findmespot.com

 

Another small company gave us Arcteryx Rho bottoms for free.

 

Green Printer gave us Solio charger.

www.greenprinteronline.com

 

Cliffhanger gave us each set of five climbing tickets.

www.cliffhangerclimbing.com

 

Power bars gave us all bars.

www.powerbar.com/ca

Bauly Foods gave us 30% off.

http://www.bauly.com/Site/Home.html

MSR jumped in and gave us Lightning Ascents for free.

http://www.msrgear.com/

 

ROI www.roirecreation.com

will give us silk underwear and offered pro-deal on Deuter packs and Hestra gloves. Did you see that Hestra heli gloves made to the top of Everest?

www.deuter.com

http://www.hestragloves.com/www/live/hestragloves/HGStartPage.aspx?TreeID=402

 

Mike is very special.

http://www.wiegele.com/

He said to us:"Please work your way almost to the end of preparation and tell me what you couldn't get. I'll give it to you". I reached my goal along the way. I don't think I need anything from him. I just would like to shake his hand.

 

Pro-deals came from Cloudveil http://www.cloudveil.com/ , Yates http://www.yatesgear.com/ and from my favourite: Wild Things http://www.wildthingsgear.com/

 

Ther is now 40Below (Thanks Joel!) http://www.40below.com/ and IntuitionSports (Thanks Rob/Crystal) http://www.intuitionsports.com/

 

You know ...

 

Up to that point I was very grateful for support from all these environmentaly sensitive partners.

But when I unpacked my Wild Things stuff it was something.

I really can't express my feelings.

You have to see Belay Parka or their pullover. You have to see their Mountain bibs! Man, o man ...

 

I know you personally will reject their offer (Good god, how much sposorship does it take to get to Alaska) but I couldn't.

I hate to admit that I have little financial problems when mountains and expeditions come. Many things at home have a higher priority.

 

You think differently and on your expeditions, I bet you didn't even bother asking someone for help. You just swiped your Mastercard. I think that is the best way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Zoran

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Maybe his motivations are not guilt-based, but simply, he's acting on what makes him feel good.

 

A nice, warm & fuzzy mix of extravagance and conservation.

 

Thank you.

You have a style.

I wish I can write like you. maybe my comments will be more meaningful.

When English is a second language it's really hard to say what you think, but you got to the point. I don't have any hidden agenda.

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Thanks for posting about your climb, Zoran. It is too bad some folks around here have to put you down so they can feel superior, but I'm sure that for each snide post here there are at least ten readers who thought your trip and your web page sound pretty cool.

 

Whether you promote "carbon offsets" or "climb for Christ," "light and fast" or "dirtbag and debauchery," we're all excited about climbing and any one of us can find something about somebody else to slam on cascade climbers.

 

(For those who want to debate my premise that Zoran's coming climb is as valid as yours and mine, I've put a similar post in Spray.)

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No superiority from this camp Mattp; rather, just a humble statement that: a) the emperor has no clothes; and, b) better to climb for the sake of pure self satisfaction/pleasure as opposed to some sort of "special" cause - whether it be Christ, global warming, blind, no legged, over 70 etc.

 

That said, Zoran strikes me a nice guy. I'll try and be more sensitive of his (and your) feelings next time by sugar coating my opinions. Yeesh.

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The carbon offset debate is completely separate from Zoran's personal finances, situation, religion, and personality. Zoran, I don't think you need to work on your communication skills, you've done a fine job of plucking at our heart strings and garnering sympathy for the negative feedback you've received.

 

I don't agree with the carbon offset concept. I'm sure the sensitive and underprivileged Eastern European that Zoran is would agree that there is a fundamental inequality in a concept or system which allows people (or corporations, or governments) to offset their portion of environmental degradation by paying a fee. The use of climbing as a vehicle for promoting something I don't believe in, as well as the obvious contradiction of climbing trips being made in the name of the environment, are a few things that bother me about this promotional effort.

 

MattP, I commend your tactic at diverting the debate by separating the two camps into isolated discussions. Probably not your intention, but that will likely be the effect. In the end, we all respond to leadership by example, so the words cast on these web pages will not be usefull in effecting change. IMHO what Zoran should really be sponsored for are his efforts in his everyday life to make some difference in his habits. It sounds like this is a nice group of people whom a bunch of businesses are willing to help out. I can't fault Zoran for accepting all that free stuff!

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If you want to climb Denali that's great -- the West butt is a classic route. But the notion that is at all possible to do a carbon neutral trip to Alaska is pretty short sighted. The state is virtually founded on oil and gas. There's no way to get up here without burning gallons and gallons - even sailing up here requires motoring to get through the generally stale PWS area.

 

Carbon neutral means climbing locally without air support.

 

Here are some pix from a couple Carbon Neutral expeditions. Judge Wickersham didn't come very close but he gets points for style.

 

The Sourdough guys were tough and did it without carbon; just some dogs, hot chocolate and a spruce pole. "Buster" even made it to 15,000'.

 

 

004_89.JPG

Judge Wickersham & partner sporting fashionable mountaineering parkas.

 

 

sours.jpg

NYT article from 1910 about the Sourdough expedition. PDF here:

http://www.peakaweek.com/photos/preview/sours.pdf

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Thanks wfinley,

This is fascinating story. I read about that first in the book my friend gave me for my birthday at the begining of the year. Their expedition was barroom challenge. I like that.

Fred called their expedition: "simply phenomenal, one of the most noteworhy expeditions of all time".

 

They climbed North Peak (wrong peak) and dragged a spruce pole, fourteen feet long. Idea was to fix the pole on the summit as a proof of success. Pole could be seen from the bar. Maybe?

 

They were hard core. Mentioning them as a comparation to our climb (in the same post I opened) it's outstanding compliment and honour. Our climb is miserable comparing to their.

They climbed Sourdough Gully in 12 hours. All expeditions need 3 days now (some 7).

 

They climbed wrong peak but they are true summiters for me. I would like to have beer there in memory to Stuck who said once abot Denali:

"I would rather climb that mountain than discover the richest gold mine in Alaska".

Edited by Zoran

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Zoran,

 

 

Just reading your bio on your webiste....I think your missing in your list of favourite local climbs:

 

1. Grouse Grind

2. Ski touring up Mt Vantage, forgetting about ascending peak after getting drunk on cheap cognac.

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You think differently and on your expeditions, I bet you didn't even bother asking someone for help. You just swiped your Mastercard. I think that is the best way.

It was either my Mastercard, or my VISA. Both are Platinum BTW

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I bet your platinum credit cards are made out of silvery coloured plastic, poser. A real geologist would have a platinum card MADE OUT OF platinum.

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It was either my Mastercard, or my VISA. Both are Platinum BTW

I am glad to hear that.

I wish I could do that.

 

I met couple of climbers with similar cards here in Vancouver. One even approached me on the street and asked if I could make him a list what is needed to climb in Squamish. He never climbed before and he didn't own a single piece. I made list and he went to MEC. Bill was 1500$. It was impressive.

Unfortunately, he climbed couple of times and realized is to hard. So, he sold the stuff for half a price. I wish he was more persistent.

 

You will make mistake not looking for more attractive gear than any clothes we have for pro-deals or available in US. Could you please see this small company from Europe? My friend just sent me link.

 

http://www.kjus.com/

Look at Commwear jacket. Price is little high but Platinum card will handle it. Few stores in Whistler and Banff sell that stuff.

New technology for temperature adjustments. It's store heet if it's warmer and release it when gets colder.

 

Pay attention to detachable purse under KJUS technology. Good place to store your precious shiny buddies.

 

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More about jacket from Forbes magazine

http://blogs.forbes.com/findoftheday/2007/10/kjus-commwear-j.html

 

KJUS Commwear Jacket, $1,199

 

Ski wear goes high-tech with KJUS's latest jacket, which boasts an integrated MP3 player and control panel on its sleeve, so you can listen to music without fiddling with an iPod tucked deep in your pocket. There's also a Bluetooth system to easily chat on your mobile. What's more, jacket's fibers retain and release heat as needed, so you'll never be too toasty or too chilly. Available in men's and women's sizes.

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