ELF

[Bug]

I happen to live in a 4000 square foot house in Woodinville, but my house has been around for almost 15 years, so I guess I'm not in any danger of hippies burning it down...

 

To all those who oppose "sprawl" - where, exactly, do you think all the people who've moved here over the past twenty years should live? Sprawl is a sign of progress, it means people are rich enough to afford their own home and a little piece of land. It is an unmitigated good.

Sprawl is progress? How much more progress can we take before there isn't anyplace to plant food? Look around you. We are past a sustainable limit and the planet is showing signs of cutting us off.

[sexual_chocolate]

thanks. fair enough (except for the "slanderous mischaracterization" part! how uncouth to accuse me of such a terrorist act).

[KaskadskyjKozak]

thanks. fair enough (except for the "slanderous mischaracterization" part! how uncouth to accuse me of such a terrorist act).

 

OK, I'll admit I am uncouth. :-)))

 

 

[rob]

And BTW, this is exactly what Islam - you know moderate Islam - is accused of regarding terrorist acts. Tacit support. Support. At least sympathizing with the goals.

 

It is extremely discomforting knowing we have the same types of folks in our midst.

 

I really take offense to these comments. I support the ultimate goal of limited rural development and "urban sprawl." That makes me a terrorist?

 

Contrariwise, that must make you a developer.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

And BTW, this is exactly what Islam - you know moderate Islam - is accused of regarding terrorist acts. Tacit support. Support. At least sympathizing with the goals.

 

It is extremely discomforting knowing we have the same types of folks in our midst.

 

I really take offense to these comments. I support the ultimate goal of limited rural development and "urban sprawl." That makes me a terrorist?

 

Contrariwise, that must make you a developer.

 

Dude, your reaction to this story was "hurrah, fuck the developers". You definitely sympathize with the goals of ELF (the ends) - if they were responsible for this, and you didn't condemn the means to their ends.

 

 

[ivan]

whatever the morality of this is, and i certainly don't agree w/ it, though i have a fair-sized anarchist streak in me, this can't be called terrorism without distortign and watering-down the meaning of the word. terrorists intentionally try to kill people - whatever numbnuts did this were not intentionally trying to kill anyone.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

whatever the morality of this is, and i certainly don't agree w/ it, though i have a fair-sized anarchist streak in me, this can't be called terrorism without distortign and watering-down the meaning of the word. terrorists intentionally try to kill people - whatever numbnuts did this were not intentionally trying to kill anyone.

 

terrorists try to instill terror into the populace, in the hopes of preventing people from doing what they are, using violence and threats. arson (and bombing) meets this definition. they do not have to kill people or try to. And in any case the *threat* is there. They may not have planned to kill anyone, but just as easily could have.

 

 

[rob]

terrorists try to instill terror into the populace, in the hopes of preventing people from doing what they are, using violence and threats. arson (and bombing) meets this definition. they do not have to kill people or try to. And in any case the *threat* is there. They may not have planned to kill anyone, but just as easily could have.

 

Hmm. Interesting.

 

Terrorists:

[KaskadskyjKozak]

terrorists try to instill terror into the populace, in the hopes of preventing people from doing what they are, using violence and threats. arson (and bombing) meets this definition. they do not have to kill people or try to. And in any case the *threat* is there. They may not have planned to kill anyone, but just as easily could have.

 

Hmm. Interesting.

 

Terrorists:

 

and how did the Boston Tea Party instill terror into the populace?

 

I used to work in Biotech, and there were days where we were on alert because of groups like ELF. There was a threat of being bombed or attacked because we "experimented on animals". Yes, we had some fucking mice on the facility.

 

If this incident was indeed conducted by ELF, and there are more bombings like it, then there will be a feeling of fear amongst those who are building these homes, considering buying them, or who already live in them.

[rob]

What do you think it would have been like to have been a loyal British subject during the american revolution? Do you ever wonder what it would feel like to be tarred and feathered?

 

Careful which brush you use when you start painting broad strokes.

[StevenSeagal]

For the record, I would also much like to see great restraint in development and to see our society shift to more sustainable living arrangements and methods of transportation- I think we are actually going to be forced by economics and reality to do so, it would just be nice to see it done by choice of will rather than coercion or duress. But this action, if it was by ELF, was stupid, wasteful, and potentially dangerous, and was a product of someone's violent, self centered political agenda, nothing more. Anyone who applauds it in tacit support can't possibly be seeing the problem in anything other than fragments.

 

Since someone mentioned it, if it turns out to be the developers enacting an insurance fraud, then I find this equally deplorable for they double-wasted the resource by building something that wasn't demanded and then destroyed precious materials so they could cash in anyway.

 

And either way, being that I am environmentally concerned, this was just fucking stupid.

 

I'd like to see oil consumption greatly reduced, but I'm not going to go blow up the Alaska pipeline or a nearby gas station. Likewise, I would like to think that most of those opposed to abortion, as another example, don't support killing doctors and blowing up clinics.

 

People who commit acts of physical sabotage always think they are being so revolutionary and proactive, but it's a simply juvenile and poorly thought out reaction, at best. At worst, the consequences can be deadly and end up hurting people as collateral damage. Does anybody remember the Martin Pang warehouse fire? That was an insurance scam, alright, but 4 firemen died doing their job that night, all because this selfish prick thought he'd bypass the system and stick it to the man.

 

I have no real love for land developers and housing magnates who charge into an area with grandiose plans that more often than not have no real perspective on local preferences, environmental concerns, or especially in long term consequences for the region-Ken Behring comes to mind.

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

What do you think it would have been like to have been a loyal British subject during the american revolution? Do you ever wonder what it would feel like to be tarred and feathered?

 

Careful which brush you use when you start painting broad strokes.

 

The colonial populace was split roughly 50/50, as I recall. Brits were commandeering the homes of revolutionary/sympathizers for garrisoning officers and soldiers, etc. It's not as simple as you paint it.

 

Your example is poorly chosen.

 

[Hugh Conway]

What do you think it would have been like to have been a loyal British subject during the american revolution? Do you ever wonder what it would feel like to be tarred and feathered?

 

Careful which brush you use when you start painting broad strokes.

 

I'm sure there was no legitimate reason the loyalists fled to Canada.

[sexual_chocolate]

Does anybody remember the Martin Pang warehouse fire? That was an insurance scam, alright, but 4 firemen died doing their job that night, all because this selfish prick thought he'd bypass the system and stick it to the man.

 

"stick it to the man"? wtf, don't even try to equate his acts with some generic "revolutionary" "protest" act by using that term.

his motives were purely monetary.

 

side-note: those firemen should never have been ordered into a fucking vacant burning warehouse. to blame the arsonist for the idiotic moves of the then fire marshall is bs.

 

btw, your "tulku" title is transparent, and will hereby be revoked. friggin sell-out tibetan buddhists.

Edited March 4, 2008 by sexual_chocolate

[StevenSeagal]

Does anybody remember the Martin Pang warehouse fire? That was an insurance scam, alright, but 4 firemen died doing their job that night, all because this selfish prick thought he'd bypass the system and stick it to the man.

 

"stick it to the man"? wtf, don't even try to equate his acts with some generic "revolutionary" "protest" act by using that term.

his motives were purely monetary.

 

OK, maybe not the best example, but the point was that setting fires in vacant buildings isn't necessarily something where no one gets hurt.

 

 

side-note: those firemen should never have been ordered into a fucking vacant burning warehouse. to blame the arsonist for the idiotic moves of the then fire marshall is bs.

 

Agree the fire marshall made a poor call, but I'm sure you are not suggesting that an arsonist shouldn't be held accountable for his actions? The marshall wouldn't have had to make the poor call if Pang hadn't torched the building in the first place. A drunk driver usually doesn't have any intention of hurting anyone but they still get charged with manslaughter if they kill someone.

 

btw, your "tulku" title is transparent, and will hereby be revoked. friggin sell-out tibetan buddhists.

 

You seem agitated by something...a trifle angry, perhaps. Would you like to come into the temple for tea and scintillating discussion?

 

Edited March 4, 2008 by StevenSeagal

[sexual_chocolate]

Agree the fire marshall made a poor call, but I'm sure you are not suggesting that an arsonist shouldn't be held accountable for his actions? The marshall wouldn't have had to make the poor call if Pang hadn't torched the building in the first place. A drunk driver usually doesn't have any intention of hurting anyone but they still get charged with manslaughter if they kill someone.

 

yeah but to charge him with murder 2nd degree i think seemed f'ed up to me. i don't know, big fuck up all around it was. whatever.

 

 

You seem agitated by something...a trifle angry, perhaps. Would you like to come into the temple for tea and scintillating discussion?

 

yeah agitated. sick 5 days, supposta be on vacation at smith or nelson bc, STILL have work shit to do on a proj. yeah agitated.

 

btw, here's an interesting link for the spiritually interested:

 

(scroll down about 2/5th's for special steven relevance)

 

ummm, i am a link.

 

 

Edited March 4, 2008 by sexual_chocolate

[KaskadskyjKozak]

[

yeah agitated. sick 5 days, supposta be on vacation at smith or nelson bc, STILL have work shit to do on a proj. yeah agitated.

 

I've been sick 11 days. Finally went to Doc, who even took chest X-Rays. I'm on antibiotics now. Hope you get better and don't go down the road I did.

 

 

[ivan]

was the african national congress a terrorist organization?

 

were the sons of liberty terrorists?

 

was gandhi a terrorist, as he had millions of followers who could (and did, though of course he opposed it) use physical violence at any time, and who certainly could terrify the livlihood of tens of thousands of english citizens with his boycotts?

 

were abolotionists terrorsts? was john brown?

 

the word "terrorist" has to mean something big - like "treason" it must be very narrowily defined or risk being abused by government to legitimize monstrous oppression - clearly the folks who did this latest arson need to have their balls nailed to the wall for it, but to call them terrorists paves the way for the government further trampling our civil liberties in the pursuit of the ultra-mega-evil-doers. these guys are criminals, not terrorists, unless you wanna start calling dope-slingers terrorists too, and why not?

[sexual_chocolate]

[

yeah agitated. sick 5 days, supposta be on vacation at smith or nelson bc, STILL have work shit to do on a proj. yeah agitated.

 

I've been sick 11 days. Finally went to Doc, who even took chest X-Rays. I'm on antibiotics now. Hope you get better and don't go down the road I did.

 

 

so last spring we went to AZ flagstaff, and jack's canyon, the pit, grand canyon, canyon de chelly, etc for two weeks and wtf i spend 6 days in hotel rooms in bed and finally see doc who prescribes bug killers. wtf? it's the only time i've been sick last few years is when we plan a vacation.

 

did i already say wtf?

[StevenSeagal]

 

btw, here's an interesting link for the spiritually interested:

 

(scroll down about 2/5th's for special steven relevance)

 

ummm, i am a link.

 

 

 

I found this part more interesting:

 

Expounding further on such restrictions, the Lama (in P. Harvey, 2000) has said:

 

Sexual misconduct for men and women consists of oral and anal sex.... Even with your wife, using one’s mouth or other hole is sexual misconduct.

As for when sexual intercourse takes place, if it is during the day it is also held to be a form of misconduct (Lama, 1996).

Thankfully, some “fun” is still allowed, albeit not during daylight hours:

 

To have sexual relations with a prostitute paid by you and not by a third person does not, on the other hand, constitute improper behavior (Lama, 1996).

Interesting. Yet still, speaking of “the other hand”:

 

Using one’s hand, that is sexual misconduct (the Dalai Lama, in [P. Harvey, 2000]).

Masturbation ... includes emitting semen on another person, a monk getting a novice to masturbate him, or himself masturbating a sleeping novice, which could be seen to include homosexual acts. It is a lesser offence, of expiation [i.e., atonement], for nuns “tormented with dissatisfaction” to slap each other’s genitals with their palms or any object, with the slapper “enjoying the contact” (P. Harvey, 2000).

“Nuns just wanna have fun.”

 

[ivan]

It is a lesser offence to slap each other’s genitals with their palms or any object with the slapper

now THAT sounds like terrorism!

[sexual_chocolate]

the author is hilarious.

 

speaking of a previous post, actually j. krishnamurti was super influential to me when i was teens/college. he was one of the few who seemed to pierce through the shit for me. but i think i hero worshipped him and his teachings, which was uncomfortable. so when i read critiques about him, my discomfort started to make some sense, and i felt kinda liberated. this link goes into some detail about his crap, along with somewhat interesting analysis about possible reasons for his outlooks.

Edited March 4, 2008 by sexual_chocolate

[Jim]

the word "terrorist" has to mean something big - like "treason" it must be very narrowily defined or risk being abused by government to legitimize monstrous oppression - clearly the folks who did this latest arson need to have their balls nailed to the wall for it, but to call them terrorists paves the way for the government further trampling our civil liberties in the pursuit of the ultra-mega-evil-doers. these guys are criminals, not terrorists, unless you wanna start calling dope-slingers terrorists too, and why not?

 

Agreed. I'm so tired of the fear mongering.

[StevenSeagal]

 

but i think i hero worshipped him and his teachings,

 

...isn't that what krishnamurti especially excoriated his listeners not to do?

 

this link goes into some detail about his crap, along with somewhat interesting analysis about possible reasons for his outlooks.

 

I'll have to read it, it sounds interesting.

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

 

but i think i hero worshipped him and his teachings,

 

...isn't that what krishnamurti especially excoriated his listeners not to do?

 

yeah of course. that was pretty central.

 

but think of the difficulty this sets up for a young inquisitive mind looking for meaning and answers in a culture seemingly bereft of them: here's a fellow who seems to saying a lot of shit that makes sense. but in the end, it's HIS game, right? there's no way i could have digested his game so entirely as to be completely independent of it, at that time. especially when his game was quite revolutionary and "out there" for me, ie. not only intellectually challenging, but emotionally as well.

i didn't have "solidity" in my own life, and here's a guy presenting "answers", see? and no, the irony of it all wasn't lost on me, and as a matter of fact made it even harder, cuz here's a dude saying "this is the way it is" (which he was, in many ways, no matter his disclaimers, AND I COULDN'T ARGUE WITH HARDLY ANY OF IT, CUZ IT RANG TRUE!), yet saying "don't listen to me for answers.".

 

anyways, that was my uncomfortable dilemma which may or may not make sense, but to read about his foibles was actually liberating for me at the time....