coug4 Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 The sight of people looping the rope over the pick on modern tools creeps me out. Most tools today have sharpened (relatively speaking) top edges to assist in tool removal. IMHO this is no place for a rope! Worry about style and ethics somewhere down the line when you’re redpointing a WI6+. I have friends that have climbed on ice 15 years without a leader fall (knock on wood). On the other end of the spectrum I have heard of two falls this year by people just starting out. Stay in control and lead only what you can without undue risk. It’s supposed to be fun, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweatinoutliquor Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 This is actually a pretty good topic and I think a lot of good discussion has come out over it. Personally, I think having tricks like looping the rope over the top of your tool are good to have. Most important is not to take a fall. But, I think if I was climbing a route, I would want to hang using that trick to be my absolute last resort, and when I finished with that climb I would make sure to step it down a grade until I could climb it without having to rely on hanging. At least for me leading ice right at your fall limit is scary, which makes it less fun. I'd rather feel safe and comfortable leading something humbly within my abilities. Good discussion though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 On a recent trip I took, I worked on taking rests on steep ground and found that by resting on leashes (OMG! leashes!) by releasing the hand from the grip, mental relaxation, and deep belly breathing. I was able to get the pump out,especially after placing a screw. Don't believe the leashless retoric. If you need to hook in, then do it. If not, then don't. I did when I started out but after many miles, I slowly eliminated it. Don't worry about what others think about ethics. As long as you are safe and don't impact others too much, it is all cool. Your idea of the adj daisy sounds safe. I have used a draw clipped to my belay loop. The rope over the tool doesn't sound like a good way to rest as rope stretch will lower you a ways. ALso puts double body weight on tool instead of single body weight. excellant question and responces on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad_A Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Another thing you can try is practicing placing screws on steep terrain while on TR. I've done this with friends at Haffner Creek up in Canada, and it helps gauge where you're at. Places like that are great for trying all kinds of different stuff, and getting your efficiency dialed; mileage, to me, is really the key. I believe what sweatinoutliquor says is true about making sure you stay on terrain that is more "humble" until you're ready to up the ante, and don't let any partners pressure you into leading anything you're not ready to. Above all, have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korup Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I think an important thought here is that when climbing ice, SAFETY should be your top priority. Seriously, worry about style and bad-assness later! Even a small fall is essentially guaranteed to break your ankles: save the "pink-point" "redpoint" "french-free" BS for warm sunny rock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Learning not to hang while/after you place screws will make you a better climber. Hanging while placing screws will prevent you from advancing. You can make WI6 into WI4 by hanging every body length, but you'll never be a WI6 climber if you have to do that to get up a 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafael_H Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ... Even a small fall is essentially guaranteed to break your ankles... I'd give this a full 50 pounds, pure. You can find some free range variety at a bison farm around Cle Elum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Learning not to hang while/after you place screws will make you a better climber. Hanging while placing screws will prevent you from advancing. You can make WI6 into WI4 by hanging every body length, but you'll never be a WI6 climber if you have to do that to get up a 6. This is a good goal to be sure. For some of us, getting out often enough to keep in shape and form is a problem. Safety is realative to your skill level in these circumstances and we all have to make our own judgements pertaining to fun/safety/style. But Wayne and Dru would be the folks I'd listen to if I were an aspiring hardman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korup Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Well, I'll call BS on your BS call. 10+ foot leader fall with crampons = broken ankles, or blown knees, 90% of the time. The reason you don't think so, is because 99% of people leading ice make damn sure they never fall. Physics always wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 The sight of people looping the rope over the pick on modern tools creeps me out. Most tools today have sharpened (relatively speaking) top edges to assist in tool removal. IMHO this is no place for a rope! I'm going to have to agree here. I wouldn't put the rope anywhere near the razor sharp top edge of my pick, and there's really not a whole lot to prevent the rope from slipping off the top of the tool and winding up there during a fall. One scenario to think about is what if you bury a tool and can't remove it on a stance with little or no rest? It happens. You'll probably want the option of hanging on the other tool while you work out the stuck one. I use the thinnest runner available (to clear the tight gap between the grip rest and the ice) binered to my belay loop (the biner gives you the few extra inches of length you'll need to loop it over your grip rest so you can hang). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 This is a synopsis of the "leading" section in "Ice and Mixed Climbing" by Will Gadd. With some of my own insight also plan ahead. pick climbing areas and placement areas. Stem in a dihedral, or between opposing features to rest the arms. after finding a placement spot, climb until it's waist level and sink a tool at arms length above, Pick a place where you can get at least one heel down or chop a small ledge with an axe or with a crampon. Make a divot where you want to place the screw, with the other axe or using the screw with a hammering action. place the second tool level or just below the first, so you can change arms if pumped out it's important that the placement be at waist level and not above or off to the side. The hardest part is getting it started, and the most force can be generated at waist level. If you feel sketched clip a draw to the bottom hole on your best placed axe and clip the rope. start the screw by forcing with the palm. after it starts enough to stay in on it's own, wind it with the crank. The strongest screw is angled about 10deg downward. Screws hold more from the threads than any picket effect. If it's angled upwards it has more leverage to break the surface of the ice and become a weak placement. tied off screws are pretty weak, take different lengths especially if you anticipate shallow ice. place one screw about 10' above the belay and then after that to keep from hitting the ground or a ledge, typically ice is climbed with more run-out than rock. like no more than 8 screws per pitch. One thing I've never seen in print. It's a lot easier, when clipping with a draw at waist level with thick gloves, to clip the rope first then the screw. It's all about speed, so it really helps to practice. I once had an ice training wall and the best thing on it was simulated screw placements so you could dial your technique. steeper ice is a whole nother game. usually the steeper the thinner, scarcer, the placements. Don't kid yourself going leashless bumps it up a couple letter grades. You can fall safely on ice especially if it's vertical or steeper and there is technique to fall safely even on 80 degree but you have to be used to falling. One of the biggest mistakes a rookie can make is to place axes too close together, on brittle ice a dinner plate can shatter both axes out at once. From the description I think this is what happened to Joe Simpson in Touching the Void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genepires Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 If i read your thing right, you say to place the tools close together and also to not place them close together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckaroo Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 If i read your thing right, you say to place the tools close together and also to not place them close together. I will try to be more clear and succinct Most of this is from Will Gadd, I added about 10 percent I wrote level. Level could mean 50' apart. If you want specific then about 12" to 18" apart, of course this varies with conditions, I go 18" if the ice is brittle or bulging, at times you may not have any choice but to go closer but you better know what you're doing. in regards to angled 10deg downward, this is out and down, not in and down. And the angle is in relation to the ice surface not ground plane. the other big mistake I've seen in numerous trip reports is climbing ice when it's too warm. 30deg or so is usually too warm, people have died in the PNW when it's too warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Lead with the thinnest gloves you can get away with, then change to warmer ones after finishing the pitch. To keep your leading gloves dray, don't belay and lead with the same pair of gloves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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