Arc'teryx Jackets now Made in China?

[Delmarco]

I just bought a 2008 Theta AR Proshell from Paragon Sports (a major outfitter store in NYC) and it was when I got home I realized the tags say Made In China.

I immediately contacted the store and they told me the jacket was authentic and that the brand usually makes items in China and other parts of Asia, but they were not sure which items are made where. After getting a number for a the Arc'teryx Rep and calling them, I got the run around from Arc'teryx and was still left wondering what the hell I $450 paid for?

 

From what I could piece together after multiple calls to various rep folks that don't know the whole story is some smaller items like fanny packs and head wear were made in Asia whiles others pricier items like the Alpha SV line are still made in Canada. I've heard rumors from friends last summer that Arcteryx will be shifting all manufacturing to China in 2008. But I didn't think it would be so soon.

 

Does anybody have the full story on this, before I return my $450 jacket?

 

[Delmarco]

I hate to answer my own thread...

but after a google search I thought this was interesting

 

http://www.sustainableisgood.com/blog/2007/06/arcteryx_shifti.html

[zeroforhire]

ok. How does everyone feel about this? I mean, anyone who seriously looks at the apparel industry can come to the conclusion that it was only a matter of time until the production was shifted offshore.

As far as quality is concerned... I really haven't noticed a difference. I haven't had enough time to thrash my pro shell. I did have the opportunity to talk to the VP of arcteryx about this very subject... and he said that the truth of the matter is that no one really wants to pursue a career in sewing in vancouver. I can totally understand that... a lot of the worlds skilled labor in this department is in China.

As far as the fact that the price of the jackets hasn't been lowered, is just wishful thinking. Arc'teryx is a business, and last time I checked, canada still has a capitalistic economy... so Arc'teryx is in existence to make money.

We now live in a world where the market is global... this is a fact of life. Now, we all have the choice of what we want to buy and companies we want to support. Go ahead and choose an inferior garment, as long as it gives you warm fuzzies because you are doing something good.

If you click that link that was provided, someone made the comment that they will continue to buy from patagonia because they have a clear mission statement about saving the earth etc. etc. I am not sure that they know that even patagonia makes a lot of their stuff in china. *gasp*

 

I am really interested to see what other people think about this movement, and if they have found the quality of arcteryx to be lacking this season. I hope not... that was the major downfall of TNF. Hope it doesn't happen to Arc'teryx.

[Dechristo]

In the late '50's, people looked at you with narrowed eyes if you drove a car from Germany. Same thing, a decade later, when Japanese vehicles were making inroads. Yes, there was the stigma still of WWII, but be it political, environmental, or worker-condition/pay concerns, the arguments and effects remain quite similar.

 

The bottom lines of quality (to include the ancillary conditions/effects of production) and price will dictate if the current concerns too will pass.

[letsroll]

I bought a couple of items last year cause they were on sale and they fit perfectly for me. I am a bit suprised and disapointed to learn the jackets and such are made in china. Part of the reason I purchased thier clothing is because I thought it was made in Canada.

 

I really don't care that there stuff is made in china but thier prices should reflect that fact. We all know labor in china and such places is significanly cheeper. Yet thier prices have gone up with the new gore Pro what ever. I am sure the chines are as good than manufacturing in canada. Just disappointed yet not suprised that their prices don't reflect that. I will think twice and probably not purchase thier $$$$ stuff because of that fact. I will look for the cheeper made in china stuff.

[letsroll]

Is integral designs clothing made in canada? Do we know for sure? Wild Things made in USA for sure? Think I will go with one of these next time.

Edited January 15, 2008 by letsroll

[olyclimber]

Alpinist magazine is made in China

 

I do think is sucks that a boutique brand would outsource themselves to China (after all, as what pointed out in one of the above articles, the main consumers are purchasing because they are looking for a MADE IN CANADA or MADE IN THE USA label. But then perhaps Arcatearix doesn't want to be a boutique brand anymore (or rather isn't one anymore). That's their call.

 

Hopefully those skilled workers displaced by any outsourcing will contribute to starting a new boutique brand of quality (and maybe more affordable?) outdoor wear. Then we can all get our elite kewl $ climbing gear and laugh at the Arcateryx wearers like we did at the TNF puffy wearers of old.

 

Quality is definitely going up for stuff made in China, and I'm sure there are people on this board more familiar with the quality control processes being implemented over there. Like anywhere else, quality manufacturing costs more money.

 

Someday China will make EVERYTHING and Canada and the United States will only exist to do Information Storage and Retrieval. Its all part of the Communist plot to take over the world.

 

 

 

[ZimZam]

So much for capitalist yanqui dogs.

[Hugh Conway]

So much for capitalist yanqui dogs.

 

Blame the Finns. Amer needs to make more money. They are currently ending production of Salomon skis in France and all ski boots in Austria to wring further profits out of there empire.

[G-spotter]

Every sewer in the Arcteryx factory in Canada is from somewhere in Asia or Asia Minor in the recent past.

 

North American-borns who sew are rare creatures and mostly don't want to work in a factory all day.

[Hugh Conway]

North American-borns who sew are rare creatures and mostly don't want to work in a factory all day.

 

I remember Lotus Designs when they were an independent maker of paddling gear and PFDs had found a large number of people willing to sew in rural TN - they were good quality, cheap, and more than happy to have the work.

 

When Patagonia bought Lotus they quickly closed and moved production to China and let the brand wither and die.

[Delmarco]

Interesting...I'm less upset because I thought the quality was poor. In fact, you won't even be able to tell it was made in China without looking at the tags. I've worn the "Made In Canada" Arcteryx gear and its almost no difference. In the past I stayed away from Arcteryx because of the high prices until a few years ago I learned their stuff was actually made in Canada, hence the hefty price tags, rave reviews and the consistent quality and design.

So when I paid $450 for the Theta it was because I wanted my money to go to a company that was keeping it real with customers and understood us and what we do with gear after we spend most of our paychecks on it.

Not only did I find out Arcteryx moved to China, but they are also keeping mum on it, whiles keeping the price tags higher than ever before.

 

That's where you begin question the morals and greed of the people running the company.

 

I don't mind the move to China if that works for them (the way cheap, skilled, 3rd World labour usually works for 98.7% of Western companies), but they need to advertise that to customers, ensure that quality is consistent, and no international environmental and child labour laws are abused. By them keeping silent about the move, makes me not trust them.

 

Because of that I totally see Arcteryx becoming what The North Face became in the mid to late 1990s...just another greedy company with no morals, no mission statement and absolutely no repsect for it's customers sensibilities beyond getting our money in their pockets.

 

 

[sixoclocknews]

I think you don't see the price decrease because of the increased cost to make Pro. The jackets that stayed in Canada (Alpha LT and SV come to mind) also saw price increases. Seeing as the Theta AR has been their best selling most popular jacket, I think they wanted to avoid raising the price.

 

I think they'd have problems advertising that no international environmental/child labor laws are broken in the production of their products simply because China's (and others) laws are so weak, if existent at all. The lack of laws is exactly what has helped China become a powerhouse of production (along with a lack of tariffs etc.) Imagine if there was an import tax on sportswear that made it cost effective to produce the goods here, you'd see a bunch of companies pop up. Arc'teryx was also bought out not too long ago (and has changed hands at least once since), and have been slowing shifting production from Canada ever since. The new management seems to value profit more than the values it was founded on. It happens all the time, and it's a result of capitalism, but that doesn't mean that the company doesn't have a choice. There are plenty of companies that stay true to their values while producing quality merch. they just might not be able to produce enough product to fill every REI. Then there's additional environmental impact of shipping from over there.

 

As Hugh pointed out there are people that are willing to sew in the US/Canada/where ever, but when you don't treat your employees correctly, or expect them to work 10+ hours a day (to keep up w/production schedules or whatever) they'll find another job that treats them better. You can make cost competitive, quality, local products, you just don't have as high of profit margins. You just have to pick what's more important.

[Blake]

Why is there an inherent assumption that this moves means less quality? In both cases the jackets were made using state-of-the-art computerized sewing equipment by Asian-born sewers, but in this case the asian-born sewers still live in Asia.

 

It's the same as Rock Empire or Trango cams being made by climbers in factories in Europe or Korea, just because they are not American/Canadian climbers doesn't mean that they aren't skilled at what they do.

 

If you want to order a waterproof shell from a small Canadian company that's more breathable than any of the Arcteryx Gore Tex ones, there's a company in Calgary with your name on it.

www.integraldesigns.com

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

Why is there an inherent assumption that this moves means less quality?

 

Because most companies moving to China are looking to cut costs, not improve quality?

 

At full retail there are other brands as good or better (Norrona being among those). Since it's possible to find the deadbird for 50-70% off retail, not a bad deal. Especially with the Goretex warranty - I got new ski pants this season out of that

[snoboy]

They've been making outerwear in China for a couple of years now at least. My Chinese jacket and pants are of the same quality (ie miles better than most anything else) as my Canadian made pieces were. I buy it because it works for me, and the customer service is excellent.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Why is there an inherent assumption that this moves means less quality?

 

Because most companies moving to China are looking to cut costs, not improve quality?

 

And the cut costs don't necessarily translate to lower prices for the consumer but stuff some CEO's compensation package.

 

Personally one reason I bought Arc'Teryx is because it's made in N. America. I'll rethink that the next time around.

 

[G-spotter]

It works like this:

 

You make 20,000 jackets a year and you have hired pretty much every available sewer in the area.

 

You want to sell 40,000 jackets next year. You can't double your production locally because you already employ everyone you can in the area.

 

You start looking around for more production facilities. There are a dozen factories in the world that can make garments of the quality you want. For argument's sake one is in Poland, one is in the southern USA, one is in India and nine are in China.

 

The Chinese factories can make the same piece for half the cost to you of the other factories.

 

Which factory would you choose to make jackets to grow your business?

 

 

 

[Hugh Conway]

It works like this

 

It works like KK said G-Spotter - they are restructuring to ring more money out of the company

 

http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/company-news/amer-sports/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=48058

[northvanclimber]

That argument is reasonable as long as:

1) the company maintains the current staff in Canada, and

 

2) they keep a close tabs on the garments coming out of china to make sure the quality is up to spec.

 

i'm just glad they haven't yet shipped everything over there and that there head office is still here in vancouver. i like the idea of a local manuafacturer that i can easily get in touch with... the zipper on my 5 year old jacket stopped working the other day and i was able to just drop over there, give it to them so they can fix it and get a loaner jacket in the mean time.

[G-spotter]

It works like this

 

It works like KK said G-Spotter - they are restructuring to ring more money out of the company

 

http://www.fibre2fashion.com/news/company-news/amer-sports/newsdetails.aspx?news_id=48058

 

Dude... 400 positions lost is not closing the Vancouver factory. it's middle management Euroville jobs. Ski boot managers from Salomon. Arcteryx is growing and hiring.

[marylou]

They started making stuff in CH after being bought by Solomon.

 

I don't like to buy stuff made in China either, but outdoor gear made there is as good as the vendor wants to pay for, i.e. Arc' may be still top quality and Columbia maybe not. The factories can work to any standard, and the sewers are highly skilled.

 

 

[G-spotter]

They started making stuff in CH after being bought by Solomon.

 

The first stuff they outsourced outside Canada was daypacks to Korea in 2000. Well before being bought by Salomon.

 

REI came to Arcteryx and said "If you make a line of nontechnical daypacks we will drop the TNF crappy daypacks and sell yours instead."

 

Who wouldn't say yes to an offer like that?

 

But they didn't have enough capacity at the Vancouver factory to build that many packs, so they looked for a factory that could build them to that standard and found one in S Korea.

 

So they've been outsourcing for 8 years. Where exactly is the breaking news in this story?

[willstrickland]

They have nice stuff and yeah the asian factories can produce to the stds of anywhere else. But, who can afford the ArcTurd stuff?

 

Wild Things makes all their stuff in the US. And it's less expensive.

 

Beyond Clothing (formerly beyond fleece) also makes all their stuff in the US. They're in Seattle now from what I understand. Also less expensive than ArcTurd.

 

Both make exceptionally high quality goods. Support them.

[Delmarco]

It works like this:

 

You make 20,000 jackets a year and you have hired pretty much every available sewer in the area.

 

You want to sell 40,000 jackets next year. You can't double your production locally because you already employ everyone you can in the area.

 

You start looking around for more production facilities. There are a dozen factories in the world that can make garments of the quality you want. For argument's sake one is in Poland, one is in the southern USA, one is in India and nine are in China.

 

The Chinese factories can make the same piece for half the cost to you of the other factories.

 

Which factory would you choose to make jackets to grow your business?

 

 

That is crazy that we are so dependent on China for simple things like sewing. God forbid we piss them off and they hold embargos! There will be alot of naked, hungry Americans walking around the place that can't help themselves for sh*t.

 

On a lighter note, I'm sure there is technology and manufacturing machines out there that permits a company like Arcteryx to make 40,000 jackets a year in Canada with about 400 employees.

 

Most of the Arcteryx jackets are procured and laser cut by very simple to operate, moderately technical machinery. They are not hand stitched by a couple of Betsy Rosses sitting in a log cabin all day.

 

Moving these machines to China to make the same garments wouldn't affect quality as much as it would lower costs and exploit cheap labor.

 

Herein lies my problem with it;

 

I don't expect quality to drop, but I know for a fact, ProShell fabric costs or not, the $599 jacket made in Canada last year is not costing Arcteryx the same money this year to make that same $599 Jacket in China. We are talking major company savings on labour costs(Annual Salaries, Health and Benefits, Retirement funds, Pensions, Local Operating Taxes and Costs, Etc...) that no longer exist when you hire someone in China for pennies an hour!

And even with shipping costs that $599 Jacket costs about $50 to $100 to make in China today whereas it used to cost about $400.00 to make back in Canada. I have no doubt the quality is the same since the machines are all the same, but the people operating the machines are working longer hours for far far far less pay. Whether that affects quality can be argued but whether that lowers the moral standard of the Western Capalist world in which we are all born into and all an active part of is not an argument but a fact!