Denali Expedition 2008 - Looking for 10-12 member

[tvashtarkatena]

Who's claimed the $250k yet???

 

The $250K is a rhetorical gimmick that means nothing. All you'd have to do to deny the prize to anyone forever would be to include the term "proven without any doubt". No scientific theory has been or will ever be "proven without any doubt". Theories are forever subject to testing and re-testing...as any honest, open idea should be.

 

For the fourth time, just in case the Mongoloid actually has the capacity to learn: Facts are small things. "I've got a fossil in my hand". That's a fact. What that fact means with regards to a theory is what's important. Does it refute it? Support it? Theories are the big thing; the biggEST thing in science. That's all science is; theories tested by factual evidence. There is nothing absolutely certain about theories, and that's a good thing, because that's what has produced the amazing expansion of human knowledge.

 

The most common thing I hear from creationists is that Evolution is a theory, not a fact. That's like pointing to Mt. Everest and exclaiming "That's a mountain, not a mole hill!". Um...OK. Needless to say, this never fails to make the pronouncer appear ignorant to anyone with a laymen's command of the English language. I think some training on the definitions of 'theory' verses 'fact' amongst Biblical literalists could only help their hapless cause of trying to turn back the tide of 10,000 years of scientific progress, but hey, that's a rationalist speaking.

 

Enter the Biblical literalists: "Stop with all this science crap (crud?)! We've got all the answers right here, see? A, B, C. 4,000 years. 7 days. Adam and Eve. OK, let's hit the rummage sale".

 

No thanks.

Edited December 20, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[Bug]

who created god?

 

Better question is how does something come from nothing??? It can't. Basic law of the universe. So explain that evolution boy.

So explain to me the infinity of space in scientific terms. What law of the universe defines infinity? How do we know that we know what is beyond what we can detect? If we cannot, then what is the ultimate basis for these "laws of the universe"?

Isn't it still based on a choice of what "seems more reasonable at the moment"?

Can you really make a choice if all you know about evolution is what you read in headlines or if all you know about God is what you had forced down your throat as a child?

That would not be good science.

 

[Seahawks]

Who's claimed the $250k yet???

 

seahawks, your living proof that evolution is a farce

 

and I have to question intelligent design based only on you.

[pink]

or my fucking knees for that matter, now that's a bad design.

[minx]

Who's claimed the $250k yet???

 

seahawks, your living proof that evolution is a farce

 

and I have to question intelligent design based only on you.

 

oh isn't that cute. pink and seahawks have found each other on teh interwebs. trueluvforever

[pink]

[tvashtarkatena]

Better question is how does something come from nothing??? It can't. Basic law of the universe. So explain that evolution boy.

 

That's a very good question, but making up something all powerful, calling it God, and claiming you've answered it seems like cheating on the test, don't you think? I prefer the "we don't know yet, and we might never know, but we're trying to find out" answer. Just a little more honest.

 

And BTW, how do you know there was nothing before there was something? Seems like a pretty unsubstantiated claim to me.

[kevbone]

Holy fucking Jesus Christ would everybody STFU please. God only exists in your mind.

[Seahawks]

Better question is how does something come from nothing??? It can't. Basic law of the universe. So explain that evolution boy.

 

That's a very good question, but making up something all powerful, calling it God, and claiming you've answered it seems like cheating on the test, don't you think? I prefer the "we don't know yet, and we might never know, but we're trying to find out" answer. Just a little more honest.

 

And BTW, how do you know there was nothing before there was something? Seems like a pretty unsubstantiated claim to me.

 

So making something up like evolution and shaking in a few million years to create life is better?? Come on, it just as much if not more of a farce. The more honest answer is that something can't come from nothing.

 

I think real science can prove the beginning of everything. Evolutionist say it came from nothing. Boom and it was. Science says that that impossible to create something form nothing. The bible say boom, God made it so. That may be hard to beleive if you think there isn't a god but it make sense.

[minx]

STFU kevbone. you're just pissed off b/c your boy has run off w/a new man...if you can call seahawks a man.

 

this is interesting shit even if i disagree w/most of it.

[JayB]

Who's claimed the $250k yet???

 

The $250K is a rhetorical gimmick that means nothing. All you'd have to do to deny the prize to anyone forever would be to include the term "proven without any doubt". No scientific theory has been or will ever be "proven without any doubt". Theories are forever subject to testing and re-testing...as any honest, open idea should be.

 

For the fourth time, just in case the Mongoloid actually has the capacity to learn: Facts are small things. "I've got a fossil in my hand". That's a fact. What that fact means with regards to a theory is what's important. Does it refute it? Support it? Theories are the big thing; the biggEST thing in science. That's all science is; theories tested by factual evidence. There is nothing absolutely certain about theories, and that's a good thing, because that's what has produced the amazing expansion of human knowledge.

 

Enter the Biblical literalists: "Stop with all this science crap (crud?)! We've got all the answers right here, see? A, B, C. 4,000 years. 7 days. Adam and Eve. OK, let's hit the rummage sale".

 

No thanks.

 

The other point worth mentioning in the context of this debate is that people are countering empirically verifiable data that's been demonstrated to rely upon known physico-chemical mechanisms that are completely consistent with everything that we know about the laws that govern the behavior of matter and energy with - magical phenomena. It would be one thing if creationists or ID people had an alternative explanations that were consistent with the factual evidence and the laws of physics, but we're not, which makes the creationist critiques of evolution which are based on an absence of observable phenomena staggeringly ironic.

 

I can't help but wonder how people who posit magical explanations for natural phenomena that are inconsistent with their particular creation myth would behave if other people in their lives gave magical explanations for things that occur in their day to day lives. If you are a creationist that's been away for six months, and return to find, say, your wife three months pregnant - and she claims virgin birth, will you salute the heavens and give thanks for the miracle that's transpired or start casting suspicious glances at the UPS delivery guy? Etc, etc, etc.

 

Makes me wonder how much the average televangelist's database which contains the names and addresses of all of its donors sells for on the open market....

[kevbone]

STFU kevbone. you're just pissed off b/c your boy has run off w/a new man...if you can call seahawks a man.

 

this is interesting shit even if i disagree w/most of it.

 

 

I am not pissed off. I just could not wait to use the Lords name in vain. Seahawks a man?......grasping at straws are we?

[Seahawks]

Holy fucking Jesus Christ would everybody STFU please. God only exists in your mind.

.

 

Kevbone a closet Belinda Carlisle "Heaven is place on earth" fan.

[Raindawg]

you know, I'm done here. It was fun chatting with you all. You make for great conversations.

 

Dude...get real. There was very little fun here...this "conversation" hits a new low for cc.com...and that's saying something.

 

It's great that we can have different beliefs and still chat, and have no bitterness towards anyone.

 

Dude...you're speaking for yourself. Reread the first ugly responses and then some....bitterness towards you and your faith was expressed abundantly, to the very end.

 

I was only here for a denali trip, and now, this forum has sucked me in too far.

 

The moderators should have kept your announcement in the "Climbing Partners" forum and locked it or halted the responses when it got ugly. Your perfectly legitimate original post didn't deserve what it got.

 

 

Hope to climb with you all in the mountains someday.

 

I suggest that you be very selective. Not everyone is safe nor fun.

 

Shalom and good luck!

 

 

[minx]

the lord who? what? yeah i know seahawks manhood is questionable which makes it that much worse that you got dumped for him.

[Bug]

Bug, quit being such an apologist, at least for me. Apologize for yourself if you feel the need, but not for the rest of us. And quit asking a married woman out, even though her supple lips gently unfold like gentian pedals to kiss the dawn of summer's last morning.

You should quote what you are referring to.

You people do not need my apology and I do not apologize for what I say here. I simply expain it in "social-scientific" terms that are then brushed for readability. Well, I try anyway.

For the record, I introduce concepts that are important to me so you people will dissect them in brutal detail. I count on that. When I explain our little world to other people in a post rather than as a PM, it is a choice to engage you without expectation of any cheers or praise. You usually come through.

If Minx can't take it, she has not said so.

Her actions are her own as are all of ours. That IS a Christian concept.

I do not accept your defense of her. She chooses to be here. She posts with bile in her tone like many others. Her defense of moving this post to spray from a forum that bans spray as "Standard procedure" is not imo so differnt from a Nazi "following orders". We (I participate too) do not give people like this a choice of whether or not they will be subjected to this kind of thread.

Is this right or wrong? Why or why not? What are the options? Why do they make sense or not make sense?

These questions fascinate me. It is my life's work.

We are designing a world for our children to base their online lives on.

I do not stand in judgement of any of us. I am just one of you, like it or not.

[Seahawks]

STFU kevbone. you're just pissed off b/c your boy has run off w/a new man...if you can call seahawks a man.

 

this is interesting shit even if i disagree w/most of it.

 

 

I am not pissed off. I just could not wait to use the Lords name in vain. Seahawks a man?......grasping at straws are we?

 

Hey Kevbone is that a picture of evil knievel????? Did you know he was christian??? LOL better change that.

[JayB]

Better question is how does something come from nothing??? It can't. Basic law of the universe. So explain that evolution boy.

 

That's a very good question, but making up something all powerful, calling it God, and claiming you've answered it seems like cheating on the test, don't you think? I prefer the "we don't know yet, and we might never know, but we're trying to find out" answer. Just a little more honest.

 

And BTW, how do you know there was nothing before there was something? Seems like a pretty unsubstantiated claim to me.

 

So making something up like evolution and shaking in a few million years to create life is better?? Come on, it just as much if not more of a farce. The more honest answer is that something can't come from nothing.

 

I think real science can prove the beginning of everything. Evolutionist say it came from nothing. Boom and it was. Science says that that impossible to create something form nothing. The bible say boom, God made it so. That may be hard to beleive if you think there isn't a god but it make sense.

 

Hawks,

 

I gave a small tidbit of modern biology that addresses evolutionary questions a few pages back. How do you account for the presence of retroelements in the genome, as well as their distribution in a manner that supports the notion of common ancestry and and evolution over a timescale that spans millions of years?

 

Are these parasitic, self-replicating elements and their abundance within our genome consistent with your notion of a perfect designer? How about contagious viruses that use similar mechanisms to cause untold suffering, agony, and disease? How about the tumors that some of them give rise to?

[minx]

bug... what bile are speaking of. i have tried to keep my demeanor relatively respectful of the opposing view of this. disagreeing is not the written equivalent of bile.

 

your characterization of my decision to move this to spray is just a pathetic attempt to ignore the fact that you accused the mods of making VH a sacrificial lamb in a non spray forum and we didn't. bait switch.

[olyclimber]

you know, I'm done here. It was fun chatting with you all. You make for great conversations.

 

Dude...get real. There was very little fun here...this "conversation" hits a new low for cc.com...and that's saying something.

 

It's great that we can have different beliefs and still chat, and have no bitterness towards anyone.

 

Dude...you're speaking for yourself. Reread the first ugly responses and then some....bitterness towards you and your faith was expressed abundantly, to the very end.

 

I was only here for a denali trip, and now, this forum has sucked me in too far.

 

The moderators should have kept your announcement in the "Climbing Partners" forum and locked it or halted the responses when it got ugly. Your perfectly legitimate original post didn't deserve what it got.

 

 

Hope to climb with you all in the mountains someday.

 

I suggest that you be very selective. Not everyone is safe nor fun.

 

Shalom and good luck!

 

 

Amen.

[Seahawks]

Better question is how does something come from nothing??? It can't. Basic law of the universe. So explain that evolution boy.

 

That's a very good question, but making up something all powerful, calling it God, and claiming you've answered it seems like cheating on the test, don't you think? I prefer the "we don't know yet, and we might never know, but we're trying to find out" answer. Just a little more honest.

 

And BTW, how do you know there was nothing before there was something? Seems like a pretty unsubstantiated claim to me.

 

So making something up like evolution and shaking in a few million years to create life is better?? Come on, it just as much if not more of a farce. The more honest answer is that something can't come from nothing.

 

I think real science can prove the beginning of everything. Evolutionist say it came from nothing. Boom and it was. Science says that that impossible to create something form nothing. The bible say boom, God made it so. That may be hard to beleive if you think there isn't a god but it make sense.

 

Hawks,

 

I gave a small tidbit of modern biology that addresses evolutionary questions a few pages back. How do you account for the presence of retroelements in the genome, as well as their distribution in a manner that supports the notion of common ancestry and and evolution over a timescale that spans millions of years?

 

Are these parasitic, self-replicating elements and their abundance within our genome consistent with your notion of a perfect designer? How about contagious viruses that use similar mechanisms to cause untold suffering, agony, and disease? How about the tumors that some of them give rise to?

 

Since I'm not a hard core scientist, I did though take Geology and Ocenaography and biology in college, I could answer these question but when I aske you question based of research from other sites from people smarter than myself you dismiss it becuase I havn't done the homework. I doubt the question you raise here are done with your own intelligence also and are only a Regurgitation of crap you read and not really researched. So if you are really willing to answer tough question that I can raise I will do the homework to answer yours. But I'm not going to do it if you just dismiss them.

[ivan]

jesus christ on a cracker! i had a few harmless posts at the front end, turn away for a day, and this thread turns into an epic? did jesus dissappear on the n face of hood or sumthang?

 

after begining my world history classes by explaining evolution to 14 year olds for years now, i've deduced that trying to convince those who are automatically oppossed to it is much like trying to screw a brontosaurus - ill-advised, impossible, infuriating and, in all likilihood, incredibly dangerous. it a 1984 thing - the human mind can be trained, through the coericion of others and ultimately by the individual himself, to see 5 when there is 4, or a 4000 year old earth when a simple walk in the n cascades or through the grand canyon instantly reveals that such a blip of time is little more than a fart in a typhoon.

 

so believe whatever you want folks, and have your little baby jesus in a manger - in case you aint' been paying attention to current events for the past, oh, 2000 years, he ain't been able to do a goddamn thing - he was seen wearing sandals though, which probably means he's just been rolling phatties and chuckling over reruns of "hee-haw" instead

[tvashtarkatena]

Better question is how does something come from nothing??? It can't. Basic law of the universe. So explain that evolution boy.

 

That's a very good question, but making up something all powerful, calling it God, and claiming you've answered it seems like cheating on the test, don't you think? I prefer the "we don't know yet, and we might never know, but we're trying to find out" answer. Just a little more honest.

 

And BTW, how do you know there was nothing before there was something? Seems like a pretty unsubstantiated claim to me.

 

So making something up like evolution and shaking in a few million years to create life is better?? Come on, it just as much if not more of a farce. The more honest answer is that something can't come from nothing.

 

 

Well, Darwin didn't just make up the theory of evolution. He discovered a bunch of new birds in the Galapagos that seemed to fill every evolutionary nitch: seed eaters, insect eaters, even blood eaters. Strangely, they all turned out to be various species of finches. This observation, or 'fact', led to a question: how is it that there can be so many forms of the same type of bird, each ideally suited for its environment? To answer this question, Darwin came up with a very simple but powerful idea:

 

1) Random mutations occur over time. Most, but not all, mutations are harmful to the organism. Even the Biblical literalists don't dispute this observable fact.

 

2) Beneficial mutations that help the organism survive better will, well, help the organism survive better, so that mutation is more likely to be passed on. This is 'natural selection'.

 

3) Over time, lots of little mutations can eventually lead to substantial changes in the organism. On ancestral species of finch eventually winds up being several species with with nutcracking beaks, insect eating beaks, and blood sucking beaks. Over longer periods of time, when more mutations are involved, dinosaurs can become birds, amphibians can become reptiles, etc.

 

It's a common misconception that evolution cannot be observed in a lab. In fact, it's observed all the time. Virus's mutate and evolve into drug resistant strains very quickly, in a matter of days and weeks, as any AIDS researcher can tell you. The non-drug resistant strain is killed by the drug, the drug resistant strain populates to take it's place. Classic natural selection/evolution at work. Anti viral drug research would not even be possible without taking into account the tendency for viruses to evolve quickly into drug resistant strains.

[JayB]

I assure you that these are my own questions based on what I've learned in the primary literature. I'm not an expert on the topic, but I've read a couple of reviews from scientific journals, and a few more focused papers - and find the topic fascinating even though it's not really something that I work with on a day-to-day basis.

 

It seems to me that if you are relying on a magical cause that you believe accounts for all phenomena in the universe, and I point out empirically verifiable data rooted in observable phenomena that are perfectly explicable in terms of what we have proven about how energy and matter interact with one another - but can't be explained with the said magic - this is a fatal blow to the magical explanation in question.

 

I'm out of time today, but send me a question via PM and I will try to answer it as well as possible at some point in the future.

[tvashtarkatena]

you know, I'm done here. It was fun chatting with you all. You make for great conversations.

 

Dude...get real. There was very little fun here...this "conversation" hits a new low for cc.com...and that's saying something.

 

It's great that we can have different beliefs and still chat, and have no bitterness towards anyone.

 

Dude...you're speaking for yourself. Reread the first ugly responses and then some....bitterness towards you and your faith was expressed abundantly, to the very end.

 

I was only here for a denali trip, and now, this forum has sucked me in too far.

 

The moderators should have kept your announcement in the "Climbing Partners" forum and locked it or halted the responses when it got ugly. Your perfectly legitimate original post didn't deserve what it got.

 

 

Hope to climb with you all in the mountains someday.

 

I suggest that you be very selective. Not everyone is safe nor fun.

 

Shalom and good luck!

 

 

Well, that's one man's opinion. The rest of us seem to think that this is a pretty good thread.

 

Oh, I forgot...STFU, Raindawg!