Lanyards?

[Choada_Boy]

I'm thinking of putting lanyards on my Quarks this season for the "Alpine Sickness". I've got some ideas, but I'd like to know what's working for other people. Pics would be sweet, too, if you've got them.

 

Thanks!

[TrogdortheBurninator]

I've basically got some variation on these: http://www.alpinedave.com/leashless_rig.htm

 

I use climb spec webbing, cause they were out of mil spec. Use pretty thin shock cord so it provides less resistance. Threading the shock cord is a bitch. I tied the shock cord around a nail and thread that instead. For the tool clip ins I've got some 150 lb rated hardware store biners. I tie 4mm cord through the hole on my quarks, but clip in direct to the spike on my x-monsters. At the harness I use a snaplink/swivel combo thingy and clip it to my belay loop. I can take a pictue tonight if you like.

[Choada_Boy]

I saw ADs guide, pardon my stupididity, but what's the purpose of the shock cord if it never gets stretched? The tool would have to be out of reach for it to be doing anything, it seems.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

The shock cord keeps things shorter when not used at full extension. Without shockcord, you end up with very long lanyards with a tendency to catch on sharp pointy things. I used very thin shock cord, and it is definitely being stretched when I swing, but the cord is so stretchy that I dont notice the pull.

[Choada_Boy]

Built a pair today per Alpine Dave's specs. I might have went a bit overkill in the biners I used for clipping into the tools, there a bit smaller than a neutrino, but a bit heavier.

 

 

I found them at a marine supply store for three bucks each. Everything seems to swing OK, but that's in my kitchen, of course.

 

Threading the shock cord was easy, I used about 2.5 feet of stiff wire, bent one end around the end of the shock cord, and fired it in.

 

 

[dbb]

I've been using neutrinos but when shafting the tool the carabiner flips up into the pinky rest. a camp nano or other tiny biner like this is a good idea.

[fenderfour]

I just put together a Lanyard using these. I found some stainless swivels online for the harness side. Everything is stainless with a Working load limit of 250+ lbs. I will post some photos later tonight.

[fenderfour]

 

I found some marine carabiners similar to Choada's. These are rated to a working load limit of 260 lbs. They are made of stainless.

The carabiner in the pic is a standard BD locker. The swivel is also rated around 250 lbs WLL. The webbing is 1/2" mil spec. The seams are covered in shrink tubing to protect the stitching and prevent it from getting caught on things.

 

 

 

[David Trippett]

shafting the tool

 

heh, heh...heh

 

[Don_Serl]

choada,

 

oops, had a cpl glasses of wine after dinner, so my inhibition level is down. which leads me to comment: is anybody AWAKE out there? we went down this path about 30 years ago, and it's NOT the path to take. ANYTHING that you attach to the bottom of your tool will affect the balance and swing of the tool, and not for the better. i spent the first half-decade of my ice-climbing career frightening myself with shit tools on routes that were (looking back) beyond my skill and strength and equipment, and I came to rely on umbilicals to save my ass. or, at least to keep me from dropping off. but when i finally got on top of my fear and took the fucking strings off my tools, the climbing was suddenly about a half-grade easier. and - big personal surprise - i didn't actually need to be any stronger than i already was (i.e., pretty fucking weak) to get up at least 5+ ice. i just needed to understand how to move, and to rely on good, early placements, which come SO much more readily when you have 'freedom of swing'.

 

go back, it's a TRAP...

 

jesus! i know we old timers are boring and stupid and out-of-tune and irrelevant and past our best before dates, but...

your loss if you can't learn from the past...

 

and, sorry to diss you trogdor (i don't even know you! and this is not really anything personal, it's about the whole umbilical 'thing'), but if you REALLY can't notice the difference between the swing of your tool with and without something attached to the bottom of the shaft, well, you just gotta try a little harder. it's there, big time, man. try 'em both ways again. and again, preferably on hard, steep terrain. deal with your worries by dealing with your head and your technique, not by hobbling yourself. i can still remember the trepidation with which i was filled when i set off up my first steep route after I'd pitched my umbilicals, and i can also still recall the comparative ease of my swings and the (to me, awesome) accuracy of my sticks. the secret of mastery is... self-mastery.

 

sure came home with a smile on my face that weekend.

 

cheers,

[Choada_Boy]

Hi Don!

 

The pics of you aiding off of tools on the Deeping Wall back in the Dark Ages give you plenty of "cred" in my book.

 

Upon sobering up and analyzing the rig I built, my biners are way too beefy, I'll at least downgrade those to the smallest I can find at the hardware store.

 

Here's the goal: Leashless in the alpine without dropping a tool. Maybe it's too much to seek for...

[Don_Serl]

Hi Don!

 

The pics of you aiding off of tools on the Deeping Wall back in the Dark Ages give you plenty of "cred" in my book.

 

...gives me plenty of GUILT in MY book, but a) we had about 4 weekends worth of ice experience when we set off to climb the routes at Marble Canyon (thirty years ago - jeez, time flies...), b) we had shit gear, and c) we'd heard this was how you dealt with steep stuff in the Rockies. luckily, we 'prevailed'.

 

 

Here's the goal: Leashless in the alpine without dropping a tool. Maybe it's too much to seek for...

 

that's definitely a good goal. how about this for a try: tie 'em to your wrists, not your harness - that way they don't fuck up your swing dynamics, and you don't have 'danglies' catching every available rugosity.

 

what i'm saying is to attach a pair of clip-off style leashes to your tools, set WAY slack. stay 'in' 'em when you're worried about dropping 'em, unclip 'em when you want to be 'artful', or when you're gonna climb some mixed, or at belays, or when you're plunging the shafts, or ????.

 

i've got a friend /prior partner (now living in canmore) who does this some, and he's been happy enuf.

 

just a thought...

 

cheers

[BuilderBob]

Anything connected to your tools, whether it's to your wrist or your harness ISN'T leashless. Don has a great point; if your going to connect anything to the axe, a wrist leash is still the best option (for swing dynamics). Name me one great ice climber/alpinist today who uses these contraptions!?

[TrogdortheBurninator]

noob:

 

Edited November 20, 2007 by TrogdortheBurninator

[BuilderBob]

How about on the low end stuff you are climbing; they just go leashless.

 

Ass.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

seems to me some of the most significant alpine routes in the world are being climbed with tethers. For me, on moderate alpine terrain, the increased security to not drop a tool, coupled with the advantages/efficiencies of leashless climbing make tethers worthwhile.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

How about on the low end stuff you are climbing; they just go leashless.

 

Ass.

 

so i answered your original question, then you insult me.

 

i dont claim (nor am I) to be a good ice or alpine climber. I certainly don't have the skill or experience of Don Serl, but I do have first hand experience with leashes, tethers, and leashless, and I am expressing my experience. I reckon it is far more helpful than your (builderbob) insults and misinformation.

[BuilderBob]

Sorry,

 

I just adressed an assumption "noob", with an insult. I know Don fairly well and was agreeing with him.

[Colin]

Couldn't resist chiming in here...

 

As for whether or not to use wrist leashes:

I at first thought that going "leashless" was totally contrived and stupid, just a silly style game. Now I never use wrist leashes - and it has nothing to do with 'style.' I don't climb without wrist leashes because I think it is more 'pure' or better 'style' (after all, anything with ice tools is aid climbing in a sense), I climb without wrist leashes because I think it is EASIER. It is easier to place pro, easier to de-pump, easier to match, etc. And in the past when I used wrist leashes I always had them set loosely, because otherwise they messed up my swing, so going 'leashless' is not harder for me to hold onto my tools (and the new breed of tools are much, much easier to hold on to anyways).

 

As for whether or not to use umbilicals:

On serious alpine routes I really don't want to drop my tools, and using umbilicals is the best solution. It is absolutely true that they sometimes are annoying and snag on things - but, in my opinion they are overall less annoying than wrist leashes. Even for simple waterfall cragging I sometimes like to use umbilicals to prevent dropping a tool (This is especially the case if your pick is stuck and you are hitting your palm against the bottom of the hammer - it is easy to lose your tool when it finally comes free if it isn't attached).

 

As for what kind of umbilicals:

I think that the commercially-manufactured umbilicals that Grivel made were superior to the home-made variety because they are stronger, and the bar-tacks are lighter and less bulky than water knots. It's a shame they aren't made anymore. Just today I got a prototype of the umbilicals that BD is working on - they seem really promising, with a strong, built-in swivel and good mini carabiners to clip to the tools (it is nice if the 'biners are big enough to clip to the head of the tool, for when you are plunging the tools on lower-angled terrain). They will probably be on the retail shelves in a year, and in the meantime I think that Dave's directions are the way to go.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

i was being sarcastic in calling House and Cordes noobs, not you.

[Choada_Boy]

Thanks for the input Colin and Don! Perhaps Steve House could also chime in with his $0.02, then I'd still be mediocre!

[Don_Serl]

colin,

 

glad u chimed in. the discussion goes on and on, of course. and, really, there are two subjects in play here:

 

1. the advantages / disadvantages of leashless tools, and

 

2. methods of attachment (if any) for leashless tools to prevent 'dropsie'.

 

my (negative) position on question 1 is clear to anybody who's come across any of my comments on the subject on this forum, but when somebody with as burly a record as Colin offers the opposite opinion, it gives me pause to think. perhaps there are two factors behind the disagreement:

 

a. by definition, you have to be able to hang on to use leashless tools, and I'm no sport climber. upper body strength is always my limiting factor. Colin, I suspect you are just plain way stronger than I am, and pulling on the tools is more within your capacity than it is for me. I got some feedback from a pretty strong, very talented ice climbing friend in Canmore before responding, and on this subject he said "one thing is clear, if you want to climb leashless there is no technique in the world that will help one if one messes up - only brute power". he reckons leashless tools are best suited to those who can climb mid 12s and better. that ain't me...

 

b. leashless climbing allows one to be more 'artful' (matches, crossing hands, etc), but I'm not climbing the sorts of things where this is important at all, whereas you, Colin, might be. rock headwalls on the Emperor face could well be a place where full-on modern leashless dry-tooling technique could offer advantages. and your hands may stay warmer without the constriction of leashes. on the other hand, I can't see any need for the supposed 'freedom' on typical alpine ice faces or in couloirs. they just are not complicated, from the tool-use p-o-v.

 

so, question 2: say you DO decide to use leashless tools on alpine routes ; and say you're concerned about dropping a tool (the concern is equally valid on a waterfall, but the outcome is usually much more controlled and less serious). how do you cope?

 

a. hang on tight, and pay great attention to your tools. maybe occasionally easier said than done...

 

b. put leashes on the 'leashless' tools. kinda ironic, but fact is, a fair number of people do this on 'serious' climbs. some set 'em loose, to keep the swing free; some snug 'em up. this is far more common in the alpine than on waterfalls, where the 'sporting' approach to leashless is much more common.

 

c. add tethers. a fair number of climbers (including some real 'notables') are doing this in the alpine too, at least some of the time. the technique works - but i stand by my objections. too many snarls; misbalancing swing; unable to plunge shaft (not that you can effectively do this with a modern 'kinked-shafted' leashless tool); long awkward retrieval if you let it dangle; unable to holster tool or tuck it down your back. against the positives: dead simple; completely secure; preset to back up the belay; offers some 'anchor' security when placing gear in a tenuous position.

 

it's obviously possible for rational, experienced people to disagree about the 'best' choice.

 

for the record, in the alpine I use simple 'buckle-slider' type leashes, attached to the head of the tool. and I usually have a set length clipper sling larks-footed onto the waist of my harness, so i can clip into the bottom of a tool at a belay, or when i feel the need for more security while buggering about with gear, or whatever. i really like the 'old-fashioned' head attachment leash system: it's easy in and easy out (altho the buckle can ice up). it's secure, light, cheap, and uncomplicated. you can dangle the tool when you need to (placing gear and/or rock moves). moving to 'piolet-whatever' with your hand on the upper shaft or on the head is simple. plunging the shaft is simple. facing the tool the opposite way to chop (or tunnel) with the adze is simple. it's a lot like using an ice axe, in fact, only a bit more technical.

 

it must be nearly winter - this debate pops up every year, and while some may get bored by it all, i think it's one of the most attractive aspects of the climbing community that we argue out the relative merits of our gear and systems so vociferously. makes the sport better, maybe helps less experienced folk make better decisions (and without wasting money), and maybe occasionally saves a life.

 

have another beer! tell me another lie!

 

cheers,

 

[scottgg]

Good stuff, thanks all! Worth menioning: a notable compromise used by local hardman Mark Bunker is to leave a leash on your non-dominant tool (adze) and go leashless on your hammer. Then you are free to place gear/pound pins/shake out with your dominant hand, while securely fastened to your other tool. See Colin's trip report on his and Mark's winter traverse of Mt Index for pictures...

 

[pms]

that dual method of MB's sounds a bit suspect somehow.

[eric8]

I spent 2.5 months in Chamonix last winter/spring and climbed with people from all over of various skill sets and here is what I noticed, these are generalizations. If your strong(M7 climber) your not going to use leashes, if your weak (wi4 climber) you are or should unless your on easier mixed route. If your somewhere in between then who knows what your going to do. Also, lots of euros climb leashes without lanyards in the pine but that just scares me.

 

I'm slowly making the leash less transitions, and whenever I go leash less I use some sort of teether. Pretty much the only thing I use leashes for is vertical grade 5 water ice without a lot of features and soloing.

 

I have used two tether systems, the one described by Dave, I use that 90% of the time.

 

And then this one

Sorry guess you can't see very well but you have

the lanyards attached to your pack. I got this idea from Jim Nelson who let me borrow his tools with a chest harness lanyard set up once. Set up this way they get in your way less then if they are attached to your harness when you are fumbling around with gear on your harness. But the tethers seem to whip around more when you swing. so I would only use them on easier mixed routes that don't require a lot of swinging, something like new york gully.

Edited November 23, 2007 by eric8