Free wood

[mattp]

True to form, Pope references what he calls "the quote in question" but omits reference to the VERY NEXT SENTENCE of my post:

 

This doesn't necessarily mean that sport climbing is the pinnacle of development, and it could even be read to suggest you and your pal Pope may be right that we could next see via ferrata rigs on boulders,...

 

Here's what you did, Pope, which I think DOES illuminate your "take" in cc.com bolt discussions ... In the italicized paragraph above (yours quoting me), you deliberately left out the part of my post that undermines your critique of the rest of it. Clever subtext to readership: cc.com's bolting critics will do anything to distort the discussion.

 

There's plenty of room for debate, and you guys make some good points - but how about making your arguments and providing information without all the bullshit?

[markd]

Post deleted by markd

[markd]

The place languished until some of these pups showed up and on rappel, cleaned it off, and put in bolts... where or if needed.

 

bill,

i agree with most everything you've been saying which is why i stand to correct this one statement. while it's generally true that people were rapping in exclusively and pre-inspecting routes and equipping fixed pro; it is not true across the board. there was plenty of debate on the overuse and abuse of bolts...

 

i'm not going to list my resume, but i will say: that's *generally* ( i rap bolted 1 route ) not my history out there and i was very vocal in opposition of rap bolting the crap out of this crag.

 

i love that you're out finding gear routes - there is still plenty more. keep the adventure alive bill; you the man.

[pope]

True to form, Pope references what he calls "the quote in question" but omits reference to the VERY NEXT SENTENCE of my post:

 

This doesn't necessarily mean that sport climbing is the pinnacle of development, and it could even be read to suggest you and your pal Pope may be right that we could next see via ferrata rigs on boulders,...

 

Here's what you did, Pope, which I think DOES illuminate your "take" in cc.com bolt discussions ... In the italicized paragraph above (yours quoting me), you deliberately left out the part of my post that undermines your critique of the rest of it. Clever subtext to readership: cc.com's bolting critics will do anything to distort the discussion.

 

There's plenty of room for debate, and you guys make some good points - but how about making your arguments and providing information without all the bullshit?

 

Because it seemed irrelevant to my point, I omitted it. My point is that by reminding everybody that there exists a history of criticisms of new technologies, which you called improvements, you seem to suggest that the current criticism of bolts is a continuation of this pattern....a tendency for some to criticize technology improvements. The statement you wanted me also to include when I quoted you only suggests that sport climbing might not be the pinnancle of development. It does nothing to reverse your implied comparison of bolts to previous improvements.

 

Furthermore, I don't believe I've ever predicted via ferrata rigs on boulders.

[kevbone]

via ferrata rigs on boulders.

 

What's wrong with that? sickie

[kevbone]

there was plenty of debate on the overuse

 

And discussion on the underuse of bolts as well. We would generally discuss our mistakes with each other.

[pink]

this site needs a bolt forum. i think we should make bolt guns illegal, but that's just the liberal in me talking.

[pink]

this site needs a bolt forum. i think we should make bolt guns illegal, but that's just the liberal in me talking.

[pope]

this site needs a bolt forum. i think we should make bolt guns illegal, but that's just the liberal in me talking.

 

Pink...like the image. Chunga's Revenge.

[pope]

Pope: you have a problem with reading comprehension; I guess you don't teach English, huh? Yes, I used the word "improvements" and I was talking about bolts, but did you read my post? I didn't say what my "take" on modern practices may be, but I clearly didn't say that I see all bolting as an "improvement" and I wrote that the historical trend I noted might be read to support YOUR arguments in some respects.

 

I realize you want to stir the pot around here and make this a "bolt vs no-bolt" reality, but you fool only the uninformed - such as non-climbing land managers or novices who are interested in these topics but don't have the background to know what you are talking about. A climber of your vast experience and expertise surely is capable of more informative discussion.

 

Here's the quote in question:

 

"Read a little history and you will find that since rock climbing emerged as a sport apart from mountain climbing there has been a general trend where each successive generation's improvements are criticized by the prior. Roped belaying was decried by some in the early 20th century, pitons in the 20's, aid climbing in the 50's, and even cams were said by some to be cheating when they came out in the '70's."

 

Here's what you did, MattP, which I think does illuminate your "take" on modern bolting practices (and if this doesn't do it, remember that only the uninformed novices and nonclimbing land managers are unaware of your activities that have contributed to the problem). In the italicized paragraph above, you entered into a discussion on bolting and brought up this supposed historical criticism of "improvements" in rock climbing, as if to put into historical perspective the current criticism of excessive bolt application. Clever subtext to readership: today's bolting critics are just afraid of anything new and their rants can be dismissed since they are clearly taking their place in history as a generation of nonadaptive, xenophobic fossils. By comparing bolting opponents to such "historical" critics of equipment improvements, you are necessarily comparing bolts to what have been considered legitimate improvements in climbing technology.

 

Also, it is not my intention to stir the pot. Not everybody vocally in opposition to your views is merely trying to create a disturbance. Furthermore I have never advocated a no-bolt approach to rock climbing, although it would be an improvement on the current state of the sport.

 

I have heard Don advocate no bolts, and you are very close to it.

 

So lets step back and get the historical perspective. Short synopsis: Royal Robbins was one of the earliest who postulated that with technology, humans could theoretically go anywhere. Since we climbed for the adventure, it only made sense for us to arbitrarily draw a line in the sand "for ourselves" on technology's use so as to maintain that spirit of adventure.

 

Somehow that has gotten twisted now by some jackasses to mean that use of bolts should be illegal.

 

Frankly, I climb at 2 parks occasionally. Beacon Rock State Park and Smith Rocks State Park.

 

Using your thinking, they should not be putting in pavement as that permanently leaves scars in the land in a major way. Nevermind that people who want to just drive to the park to have a picnic will all get screwed.

 

They should not put in water spigots LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Fu*k thirsty people, let them get water at their homes eh?

 

They should not put in campsites LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Fu*k the campers eh?

 

They should not put in trails LIKE THEY BOTH HAVE as the construction to do so permanently scars the land in a major way. Both places have hammered and pounded the crap out of the rock to make trails, in a major way. Of course that screws the hikers.

 

Nevermind that you can hardly see the bolts they are so small. Just another user group you want to get the shaft.

 

As far as that goes, by your thinking, roads should not be in place at all. Even the non-paved logging roads to your lil out of the way crags tear the holy hell out of the land. Well, when you stop living in a house or using wood in any way, or stop driving to your favorite climbing spot on that major pavement that permanently scarred and tore the holy hell out of the land, maybe we can talk about this.

 

Until then you're just another loudmouth hypocrite.

 

 

You really want me to read all of that shite? Dude, stick it in a couple of short paragraphs. Make it like....the old 1-2 knock out.

 

 

 

[pink]

1970. fuck jerry, i want frank back.

 

thanks,

[Off_White]

Hah, now that's something we can agree on!

[kevbone]

Frank is dead

[billcoe]

The place languished until some of these pups showed up and on rappel, cleaned it off, and put in bolts... where or if needed.

 

bill,

i agree with most everything you've been saying which is why i stand to correct this one statement. while it's generally true that people were rapping in exclusively and pre-inspecting routes and equipping fixed pro; it is not true across the board. there was plenty of debate on the overuse and abuse of bolts...

 

i'm not going to list my resume, but i will say: that's *generally* ( i rap bolted 1 route ) not my history out there and i was very vocal in opposition of rap bolting the crap out of this crag.

 

i love that you're out finding gear routes - there is still plenty more. keep the adventure alive bill; you the man.

 

I have nothing but respect for you Mark, and meant no critisim of you. In fact, I'm not even criticizing rap bolting or rapping down to clean the routes out there.

 

The second route I tried, Jim kept asking, "don't you want to go rap it and knock that loose stuff off?" He asked me at least 3-4 times and everytime I said, "Nahh, more exciting this way". We'd seen a massive amount of loose stuff on it, mostly 1/2 way up. I thought I'd get up there and see if could find a place to plug some gear and if I could then just dance around it to the right. Barely made it @ 20 feet up, not even close to the obvious massive killer loose crap above, and the minor, near-overlooked, loose stack of blocks my feet were on decided that was the time they would co-operate with gravity and they plunged with me on it. The left arm was cranked in good and it tried to stay, but my body wasn't willing. The resolution of that conflict left blood everywhere when both my leg impaled a branch as I dropped and the arm scraped deep (but held) too. Quietly we called it a day.

 

Came back and cleaned it on rap.

 

I ain't too proud.

 

My point, I think the debates like you had during that time about these issues were positive. I just want Pope and Dawg to lighten up a bit as this issue is so situational. There are some cliffs out there (as you of all folks know, I'm wondering how many FAs of those did you do last year anyway? I'll bet the count is over 80-100) that are crack after crack after crack.

 

Conversely, there are crags with NO cracks, none. Dawg seems to think bolts in there for any reason are inappropriate. The question is, in that situation, is rappel bolting OK or not? It is done in many places. Not Yosemite, Not Tuolme and Not many other places. However, for some crags it may be a better thing.

 

Somehow, for these guys, it's OK to build a massive new concrete bridge for a boat ramp and pave all over hell and back so that boating people can intermingle and use a park. Not a peep from them. It's OK to bulldoze a new rest area or campground for the campers. Not a peep. It's Ok, to build bathrooms and roads for that user base. Not a peep. But climbers do not get this respect from them.

 

It pisses me off. F*ing hypocrites.

 

Maybe I was playing too hard on the new drill thing, but I think it's a good name for a drill. Anyway, now I have to rap bolt something, anything, take some pics and name it "Squeezin' the Dawg" just to finish that idea and piss these guys off. I've never rap-bolted a line before too, so it will be steppin' off step a bit for me.

 

BTW, the quote above was taken from the preface of one of Dawgs books. It's a very well done/well written book too. The guy's really not a total dunce, he just plays one on the internet. I've loaned it to Jimmy O and he's got it right now.

 

The moral of the story is: I guess Dawg can write the stuff but cannot live it.

 

Meantime, poor letsroll. He just wanted to do a lil trail work and look at where this went! At least they weren't giving him crap about trail maintenance. Maybe next time he'll offer to cure cancer instead, it would be interesting to chart where that thread goes off course on the road to hell:-)

 

Warm regards Mark

[billcoe]

Short version for Pope.

 

 

(thinking of your needs here, see, I did read your post)

[kevbone]

Rap bolting is way better IMO. It may not be as bold (who cares), but….if done right, the route will be done more responsible. It never even occurred to me to bolt on lead ground up. Seems so old school.

[drater]

so fucking sick of white boys who think they can rap.

just cause eminem got famous doesn't mean all you wiggerz need to be frontin.

[crimper]

so many opinions, so little time to wade through them. well, here's one more.

 

i agree with bill coe that not all crags are the same, and you're trying to cram a square peg into a round hole if you try to apply the same exact ethics to all crags.

 

i've been developing routes with markd in central OR for a couple years now, and it is true that the area is blessed with solid protectable cracks. i placed only 7 bolts on 2 routes out of 10-12 routes i've been fortunate enough to establish during that time. and i hated it. but those bolts linked cracks on longer lines and were true to the character of that crag, where mixed routes were deemed necessary due to a couple horizontal bands of crackless and looser rock that ran the length of the crag, interrupting otherwise beautiful crack systems.

 

meanwhile, the crag in question is a choss pile, comparatively speaking, and the best rock there is smooth, crack-free face climbing. so, when we rapped over these lines after viewing them from below and deeming them unprotectable, it was obvious that rap-bolting was the only realistic way to develop this crag, unless the majority of the routes (and the best rock there) was to be R or X rated.

 

now, maybe pope or raindawg would say either solo up through chossy 5-10 or 5-11 terrain for 60, 70, 80 feet to "maybe" find a ledge to drill an anchor from. but that would be a death wish, as a quick glance at the base of the crag will show you just how many holds and ledges turned out to be complete garbage once weighted.

 

the central OR ethics simply couldn't be applied here. it was not a matter of a few runouts, or "sacking up," it was a matter of free soloing versus roped climbing. and, clearly, the decision was made to create routes that would allow you to fall and not die or be paralyzed, routes you would actually repeat or recommend to someone. we also left spaces betweeb bolts where there were solid gear placements - a decision that not everyone likes or liked, as we knew there would be a backlash among those who wished we had "convenience bolted" every line so that a rack would not be necessary. but we didn't want mindless climbing, we didn't want to "dumb down" the rock or the experience that future leaders would have. so yes, there are a lot of bolts, but they are not haphazard and do not guarantee safety.

 

i agree with markd that the rap-bolting went too far, and in my opinion set a precedent that gave cover to later routesetters who have by now added a couple squeeze jobs. there was a lot of debate over the need to establish routes on every climbable section of rock, since it would encourage those squeeze jobs. but of course the argument could be made that even one rap-bolted route enables others to rap-bolt to the extent possible.

 

that's about all i wanted to say on the issue, and felt i should, considering i was involved with the devleopment. hopefully this gives a clearer view of the issues we dealt with, and clarifies that we thought long and hard about the consequences of rap-bolting.

 

 

[Raindawg]

meanwhile, the crag in question is a choss pile, comparatively speaking, and the best rock there is smooth, crack-free face climbing. so, when we rapped over these lines after viewing them from below and deeming them unprotectable, it was obvious that rap-bolting was the only realistic way to develop this crag, unless the majority of the routes (and the best rock there) was to be R or X rated.

 

now, maybe pope or raindawg would say either solo up through chossy 5-10 or 5-11 terrain for 60, 70, 80 feet to "maybe" find a ledge to drill an anchor from. but that would be a death wish, as a quick glance at the base of the crag will show you just how many holds and ledges turned out to be complete garbage once weighted.

 

Thanks, Brother Crimper, for your up-front evaluation.

Raindawg would say, "if you must develop...put up a couple of top-rope anchors somewhere accesible from above, if you must, and save the crag from a plethora of bolt trails. That's what he would say.

 

 

[kevbone]

Raindawg would say, "if you must develop...

 

Oh we must.....

[pope]

Raindawg would say, "if you must develop...

 

Oh we must.....

 

Best thing you could develop is a little pride, an ethical code that precludes sport climbing.....and some balls.

[pope]

...raindawg and pope: where do you come up with your standards that you impose on other people?

 

I think the imposition belongs to those who think they can do whatever they want to disfigure public property.

[Raindawg]

...raindawg and pope: where do you come up with your standards that you impose on other people?

 

I think the imposition belongs to those who think they can do whatever they want to disfigure public property.

 

Addendum to pope:

 

Can I arbitrarily build a picnic table in a lovely spot on public land in the Enchantments? No.

 

Can I arbitrarily carve my girlfriend's name in a tree on public land in Mt. Rainier National Park? No.

 

Can I arbitrarily chop down a tree in a national forest on public land because it obstructs my view? No.

 

(you can go through a public process that regulates OUR land and see what you can add or detract.)

 

What makes you think that you can arbitrarily add permanent fixtures to features on public land?

 

By the way, backpackers, whom some deride as a bunch of hiking wimps, had it figured out decades ago....LEAVE LITTLE TRACE. Not everything NEEDS to be climbed. Find a naturally protected line, climb clean, place your bolts few and far apart if at all, top-rope it, or find another sport that's less destructive.

Bolt-dependent sport-climbing is an environmental disgrace. Wake up. Everyone whines about garbage on Everest but at least the garbage on Everest can be picked up without using a crowbar, unlike a bolt, which is intended to be a permanent installation on the (usually public) landscape by someone who fancies themselves to be a "creator" of something special. Sit down!

[kevbone]

...raindawg and pope: where do you come up with your standards that you impose on other people?

 

I think the imposition belongs to those who think they can do whatever they want to disfigure public property.

 

Addendum to pope:

 

Can I arbitrarily build a picnic table in a lovely spot on public land in the Enchantments? No.

 

Can I arbitrarily carve my girlfriend's name in a tree on public land in Mt. Rainier National Park? No.

 

Can I arbitrarily chop down a tree in a national forest on public land because it obstructs my view? No.

 

(you can go through a public process that regulates OUR land and see what you can add or detract.)

 

What makes you think that you can arbitrarily add permanent fixtures to features on public land?

 

By the way, backpackers, whom some deride as a bunch of hiking wimps, had it figured out decades ago....LEAVE LITTLE TRACE. Not everything NEEDS to be climbed. Find a naturally protected line, climb clean, place your bolts few and far apart if at all, top-rope it, or find another sport that's less destructive.

Bolt-dependent sport-climbing is an environmental disgrace. Wake up. Everyone whines about garbage on Everest but at least the garbage on Everest can be picked up without using a crowbar, unlike a bolt, which is intended to be a permanent installation on the (usually public) landscape by someone who fancies themselves to be a "creator" of something special. Sit down!

 

You are funny.....thanks for sharing.

[ivan]

i am the descendant of ancestors who built this country by doing whatever the fuck it was they felt like doing - how can i betray my heritage now?!?