IceIceBaby Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Black diamond, a company with reputation for making durable, simple, functional climbing gear, that continued the unfortunate original founder Yvon Chouinard of Chouinard Co' (we all know the story). Yvon Chouinard started the company with liturly blood, sweat, tears and LOVE and got caught up with legal loophole bullshit that forced him to sale, to a small ski company that promised to keep the legacy going.Black Diamond today:A big corporate that claim to be employers owned just to make nice with the public and having the best customer service in the market (I will touch this point later).I have bought lately the "Dry-Tools" gloves and I have paid full retail price $60 + Tax. I have used them twice, the gloves just busted at the seams, and all stitch line has frayed thread on them. To me it seems very strange since I did not expected to happen so quickly. I have looked for the label to see if I did something wrong, only to find that a small white label that it was tacked away in the middle of the glove. The label read in subscript letters MADE IN CHINA Just by reading this line I have gotten my answer Instantly. BD couldn't be farthest away from the founder's ideology BD will sale gear with compromised quality and poor control and labor. Anything to make a buck. Even if the have no clue of how to make or create it. This show through their resent brainwashing campaigns and the legacy of making the worst gloves in the industry. I see a huge and alarming quality drop in gear made by BD and I wonder where and when it will stop My believe is: If I make a product, it should be the best I can or not making it at allMy name is the most important asset that I can sale, that not even the best costumes service in the world could repair. What I mean by that is; If I make the product it always will be after extensive period of testing and modification base on that. Made from the best materials from the top craftsman's hands and under the most discriminating quality controllers personal.Otherwise, it is not worth my effort. Becous in the long run I will have to invest in the top of the line customer department to explain my actions and to cover my ass or deal with letters like this. I should have learned from my previous experience with BD gloves (Verglas) and just not get any softgoods made by BD but I was tricked by the marketing campaign and I promise not to be a third time fool To sum it up:The only thing that the people at BD care for is, to squeeze the consumer to what they have and letting the costume service deal with those who dear to speak. The brainwashing is done in such a massive way while they trying to hide the truth under the carpet. On the gloves, you see the BD name and the Schoeller fabric highlighted and embossed in the fabric in 18pt - 20pt fonts. But when you look to how well it is been put together then, u have to dig in the glove whist part and fish for a nail size label with subscript font that you liturly need a magnifying glass to read the content. Nevertheless, they still are charging us as if it is first quality and legitimately made goods.Words of advice do not buy anything that is Black diamond made until they will show an improvement of their gear Please read this line b/c It sum it all: All I am saying, is this unrealistic to ask for the quality to be consistent or every time we go to the shop I should expect a different quality? Is buying from BD also have to be a Russian roulette [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ] Quote
rbw1966 Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Did you bother contacting their customer service department? (Sorry, I found it tedious to try and wade through your rant to see if you mentioned that). I've been happy with everything I've ever purchased from BDEL. Further, the three times I have had problems with gear (buckles breaking, tent pole punching through the bottom of my Bibler tent, ski pole breaking--three times), they've promptly repaired or replaced the item in question at their expense. And the service items were operator error--not quality of craftsmanship or materials. I wish I could say the same for the other manufacturers with whom I've had to deal. Your mileage, of course, may vary. Perhaps I am odd, but it seems to me that ranting without giving the company an opportunity to satisfy your concerns is bigoted. Quote
erik Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 ~YAWN~ too bad man, that your shit aint what you wanted it to be........ i think we need to start a campagin against ford, chevrolet, mopar, honda, toyota, nissan, sony, panasonic, firestone, goodyear, dell, intel, m.s., marmot, arcteryx and ant other company in the world whom does not create perfection for the start.............. im going back to rubbing mud ans grass on my body, all these damn clothes just dont last anymore, where's my buckskin loin cloth, that thing never needs washing or any maitence at all..... neri, your arguement is kinda like what i would call stupid.......no offense, but seriously man, every complany in the world sux in one way or another... granted their pricing is high, but like you said you bought, i dont think they are brain washing anyone.....seeing kim cizma(sp) dry tooling with the dry tools gloves did not send me out to buy them....that is your weakness. and your job as a consumer is to go out and find what YOU think will work best for YOU....it is hit and miss in all markets...... have fun Quote
pindude Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby: <utter bullshit by iceicebaby deleted by pindude> [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ] Quote
Rodchester Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 I'm with rbw1966. I wouldn't bitch until you have given thier CS Dept. a chance to fail too. Send them back or take them back. I have been happy with most BD products, and I even have a pair of the drytrool gloves. Yes they do wear rather quickly, most gloves I have worn do. Overall I really like them. Quote
pindude Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby:<snip> I have bought lately the "Dry-Tools" gloves and I pay full retail price $60+Tax. I have used them twice, the gloves just busted at the seams, and all stitch line has frayed thread on them. To me it seems very strange since I did not expected to happen so quickly. I have looked for the label to see if I did something wrong, only to find that a small white label that it was tacked away in the middle of the glove. The label read in subscript letters MADE IN CHINA Just by reading this line I have gotten my answer Instantly. [*]BD couldn't be farthest away from the founder's ideology [*]BD will sale gear with compromised quality and poor control and labor. Anything to make a buck. Even if the have no clue of how to make or create it. This show through their resent brainwashing campaigns and the legacy of making the worst gloves in the industry. [*]I see a huge and alarming quality drop in gear made by BD and I wonder where and when it will stop <snip> Do you feel better now Icebaby? You jump to some pretty broad conclusions with scant evidence to back it up. Yes, obviously you should be calling CS of the store where you bought the gloves, or from BD themselves. Shit like this happens even with the BEST of manufacturers--a mark of maturity and reasonableness would be to deal with the situation appropriately by speaking to someone who could fix the problem rather than rant on this board. And judging by your rant, it's obvious your problems are greater than the gloves. If it happened to you with TWO pair, it sounds to me like possibly you are buying your gloves too small. I have had zero problems with the BD gloves and mitts I have purchased. Still gladly using BD equipment, no matter where it's made, pindude P.S. I am VERY sorry for inadvertantly sending out Icebaby's rant as that Post #4, and subjecting people to have to read it again. Quote
EV Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Go to REI, buy a new pair, keep the receipt, take your damaged pair back a week later for a refund. I've had great luck with BD's CS department. Quote
erik Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by EV: Go to REI, buy a new pair, keep the receipt, take your damaged pair back a week later for a refund.I've had great luck with BD's CS department. technically that is theft if you did not buy the product there......just go though the normal channels......... and yes BD's cs dept is quite good Quote
jkrueger Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 As consumers, we need to speak to manufacturers in a language that they can easily understand - money. Vote with your dollars! If you don't like a company, don't buy their products. It's not like Black Diamond has a monopoly on gear - do your research, talk to friends, or try and find an unbiased review (good luck). If Black Diamond truly sucks, has horrible products, and terrible customer service, then there is no amout of damage control PR or slick advertising that can hide the fact - they will eventually go out of business. Everything I have from Black Diamond has lived up to my expectations, though I have heard horror stories regarding their customer service... Quote
IceIceBaby Posted March 26, 2002 Author Posted March 26, 2002 To all of you' who bashing what I wrote Its is really amusing to see that you all following blindly the piper as I said in my post Build your shit right a the first place and you don’t have to have a great customers service Any experience is individual and anyone is entitle to their own opinion it is your choice to be part of the herd like u all or stand up and speak your mind so some improvement will take a place I stand behind every word I said/wrote and you have the option to agree or disagree with me so till you have a better thing to say you can kiss my Quote
erik Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby: I said/wrote and you have the option to agree or disagree with me so till you have a better thing to say you can kiss my I HAVE MY OPINION AND I WANT TO RANT AND RAVE ABOUT, GRANTED I PROVIDE THAT I GIVE NO SUPPORTING EVIDENCE TO WHY THE GLOVES DID NOT MEET MY EXPECTATIONS....MY RANT IS RANDOM AND TRULY SHOWS NO POINT...AND IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THEN YOU ARE WRONG.... did anyone else read this into mr iceicebabies crying????? Quote
pindude Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by jkrueger: Everything I have from Black Diamond has lived up to my expectations, though I have heard horror stories regarding their customer service... Okay, let's cut through the bullshit on this thread. If you're going to diss a manufacturer or store, you better be able to back it up with sound reasoning or facts (Icebaby, NOT). If you are going to say you have heard "horror stories," you better be giving honest examples, rather than let it hang. pindude [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: pindude ] Quote
IceIceBaby Posted March 26, 2002 Author Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by pindude: Okay, let's cut through the bullshit on this thread. If you're going to diss a manufacturer or store, you better be able to back it up with sound reasoning or facts (Icebaby, NOT). If you are going to say you have heard "horror stories" without giving evidence, you better be giving honest examples, rather than let it hang. pindude Is my personal experience is not enough….How the hell you can judge things if not to your experience, my case is not individual and there is some others that did not step forward b/c they just don’t want to make waves, which I could care less Quote
willstrickland Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 FWIW, In the past two weeks I've sent my Lowe gloves back for warranty, my Glacier Gear pack back for repair, and some Moonstone pants back for warranty repair. I thoroughly researched and inspected these pieces prior to buying them, and was happy with the performance of each. When you look at the number of seams and the small tolerance (stitching close to the edge) when sewing gloves, packs, and the like, there's bound to be an occasional problem. Look at the sheer volume of gear we use and look at how much of it gives you problems. Not too much in my expereince. But I will say that in the last month I've had to deal with broken snowboard bindings, a shredded pack, unraveling seams on gloves, a delaminating fabric layers on pants, not one but two broken trekking poles, a worn out snowshoe strap, a shredded idiot cord on my mittens. I figure you've gotta at least give customer service a couple of tries before you bash the whole company. I'm sure all those major manufacturers could make bomber stuff that would last 100 years, but it would all weigh a ton, cost a fortune, and have the dexterity of boxing gloves. That said, prices could be lower. Say what you will, I'm happy with my BD gear (cams, nuts, and ice tools). You wanna talk about a rep for bad customer service, let's talk OR (which is funny because the one time I sent something in they did well by me). Quote
pindude Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by IceIceBaby: Is my personal experience is not enough….How the hell you can judge things if not to your experience, my case is not individual and there is some others that did not step forward b/c they just don’t want to make waves, which I could care less Icebaby, your reasoning and argumentative abilities are seriously flawed: (1) You should have called CS. (2) One or two problems with one company's products does not make them bad for all they make and do. The fact that you blew out the seams, as you said, lends credence to the theory you bought the gloves too small. Regardless, if you'd rationally and unemotionally talk with CS I am sure something could be worked out, or maybe you would discover it's something YOU'RE doing wrong. (3) You're just continuing the bull when you say others haven't come forward, yet you don't give examples. Can you absorb this without acting like a baby and respond appropriately? pin Quote
allthumbs Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Quityurbitchin' Icebaby. Phack, whata waste-o' bandwidth. Quote
IceIceBaby Posted March 26, 2002 Author Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by willstrickland: I figure you've gotta at least give customer service a couple of tries before you bash the whole company. I'm sure all those major manufacturers could make bomber stuff that would last 100 years, but it would all weigh a ton, cost a fortune, and have the dexterity of boxing gloves. That said, prices could be lower. Say what you will, I'm happy with my BD gear (cams, nuts, and ice tools). You wanna talk about a rep for bad customer service, let's talk OR (which is funny because the one time I sent something in they did well by me).WillstricklandCongratulations you are the first to actually understand what it is all about. To anyone else Just read in my post,Life expectations from gloves should be longer then two daysIt is not every product from BD, It is softgoods in particular (where the markup is the highest and there are no regulations)If you creating something new do not test it on your clients just to make production deadline If you can't improve on a product then don’t do it Customer service will not save you if a particular product is poor [ 03-26-2002: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ] Quote
erik Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 NERI you make no sense, will said nothing other then what others have said.... and of all the people i know who have the dry tool glove, you are the first to have a complaint..... sheesh east coasters Quote
allthumbs Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Personally, I always get good customer service, from various different companys. My method: (Rule 1) Don't call them up and say, "Heh, asshole, your goddamn gloves are a piece of shit. I've worn them twice and they're coming apart. Fix the fuckers or talk to my attorney." ...this is guaranteed to get you totally shithouse service and a nasty attitude from the customer service rep. (Rule 2) Be very nice and cooperative with the customer service rep. Tell them about all of their product you own, and how happy you are with it. Tell them the item in question is failing for some reason and would they please help you out. Basically kiss ass and pump em' up. They will literally bend over backwards for you at that point. ...works for me! Quote
rayborbon Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 I use the orange gloves from Esso to drytool in. You know the ones with the sticky rubber Quote
specialed Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Is it me or is the BD catalog looking more and more like J. a Crew catalog with ice tools. And now you can buy your own helmut sticker pack for only $9.95. Sellout? Quote
Rodchester Posted March 26, 2002 Posted March 26, 2002 Specialized: "And now you can buy your own helmut sticker pack for only $9.95. Sellout?" How is that a sellout? and who is that BD is selling out to? Themselves? They're a company, that's what they do. I don't think they truy to hide it either...that's why they're selling stickers. Did I miss something? Quote
IceIceBaby Posted March 26, 2002 Author Posted March 26, 2002 quote: Originally posted by trask: Personally, I always get good customer service, from various different companys. My method: (Rule 1) Don't call them up and say, "Heh, asshole, your goddamn gloves are a piece of shit. I've worn them twice and they're coming apart. Fix the fuckers or talk to my attorney." ...this is guaranteed to get you totally shithouse service and a nasty attitude from the customer service rep. (Rule 2) Be very nice and cooperative with the customer service rep. Tell them about all of their product you own, and how happy you are with it. Tell them the item in question is failing for some reason and would they please help you out. Basically kiss ass and pump em' up. They will literally bend over backwards for you at that point. ...works for me! Quote
IceIceBaby Posted March 26, 2002 Author Posted March 26, 2002 But why a product should it fail at the first place.If I am in the middle of a climb and my new gloves seams busted when the outside temperature is -40. The glove filled with snow that turn to water and got iced up and I don’t have a spare gloves because the spare gloves they are wet and iced. This cause me to lose fingers due to frostbite I don’t think that the customer service will give me a new hand with all fingers the best it can do is to replace the gloveThe reason I got the glove at the first place is for the reputation of the manufacture or at least what that they clime to deliver I want to buy gear where I don’t even have to know the customer service number B/c the gear works Quote
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