Infinite Bliss chopped- true or false?

[JosephH]

...the talented climbers freeing big walls in yosemite are sometimes resorting to tactics and style that are outside of "traditional" means IMHO. i think they did free it, but if they TRed it and put in rapp bolts, it was not done by traditional means.

 

...

 

my question is, "is it acceptable to rapp bolt in wilderness areas?" pretty simple really. what i get from joes answer is sometimes.

Hawk, trust me - I wish it were that simple. And, yes, the Nose was freed by using rap-placed bolts and El Cap is a wilderness area. Would I personally have done it on either the Nose or Prusik - no. But again, I'm not so quick to judge at that bleeding edge or assume there are never exceptions worth making. My concerns revolve more around efforts to make those exceptions the norm. The easiest way would be to simply avoid all such exceptional situations, but we both know that isn't particularly realistic as Harding, Jardine, and Hill have all shown.

[RuMR]

I wonder, too: has there been a free ascent of The Nose that didn't follow the (chipped) Jardine Traverse?

 

Matt and Hawk, there is no doubt whatsoever that Jardine's chopped traverse made the free climb of the Nose [in totality] a possibility even though he was and is widely panned for having done it. That said, it's still an irreversible "damage done" deal. Neither of the folks party to the FFA would have chipped the traverse to have accomplished the FFA and I don't believe any subsequent [free] party or parties would ever either. It was a clear mistake borne of an obsession, but one that can not, as opposed to should not, be undone.

 

The Nose also would not have been free climbed without a couple of rap-placed bolts and rap-removed pins. These decisions were entirely discretionary on the part of the later teams attempting to free climb the route. Would I have done it - no, I would have aided those stretches and I wouldn't use the chipped traverse either. But as a result, had I ever so aspired, no one would ever regard such a climb a 'free' ascent. Not a problem for me, but for folks gunning for the FFA, their call to resort to exactly the same 'methods of last resort' as the FA team were theirs to make or the Nose would likely never have been freed (and ditto for recent free/aid controversies on WFLT).

 

And no, I haven't climbed the Nose, but there is no difference whatsoever between the last pitch of the Nose and the last pitch of the line on Prusik, in deed or method. So again - for me - whatever I think of those two pitches and routes, I am ethically bound to think exactly the same of both; they're either both legitimate in the context of those FFA attempts at the edge of the possible, or they're both bogus and not worthy of an FFA designation. I'm not prepared to call Brooke and Lynn's FFA effort on the Nose bogus and that unalterably leads me to the exact same assessment of the Prusik line.

 

There is no appreciable difference between them at all. And if I hear you correctly Hawk, along with the Prusik line, you clearly do not recognize any 'free' ascent of the Nose. And hey, there are people in the Valley who look at it sideways too, so you're not entirely alone. I'm just not prepared to go there and make that judgment and that's in part because I would have come down on the other side of those calls - but only for myself, at that same time and place.

 

Also, outside of Creek splitters and the odd short pitch here or there, the world of straightup, multipitch .13 and .14 trad climbing is rarely pure or without pre-cleaning and pre-inspection. Not many free, groundup, onsight trad 14's go down to say nothing of free, groundup, onsight trad 14 FAs. I'm not so quick to rush to judgment at the bleeding edge where trad - for short stretches - necessarily gives way in one form or another to what I call "sprad". Containing "sprad effects" at the bleeding edge of trad climbing to me means giving absolutley the least quarter possible to any and all methods and techniques which dilute a pure, clean, trad ascent.

 

But I also recognize there are limits to free climbing - the odds of seeing free, ground up onsight trad 5.16 FA's is pretty damn slim no matter how much you want to look backwards and say "but 5.11 was the top end just xxx years ago". As far as free climbing is concerned - somewhere out there right at the limits we are rapidly closing in on - trad, sprad, sport, pre-placing, pre-inspection, pre-cleaning, etc., etc. all start to bleed into "can a human climb it free in any style, period" - again, much like at an event horizon or when humans play chess against computers.

 

And that is my personal view - that there is a boiling ethical event horizon operating at all times at the very bleeding edge of climbing in all disciplines and just because something may happen there, I no way support the idea that means there is any legitimate ethical grounds, or wholesale carte blanche, to back-propogate it down to every 5.6 in the land. That in no way means 'anything goes' or that anything is 'acceptable' on that bleeding edge in my view - but it's at that bleeding edge where evolution occurs - and exactly because of that, what does occur there should be looked at hard before being simply turned loose into the wild. Jardine's traverse is a good example of one that did not survive the cut on inspection.

 

From what I can tell, the difference between me and a lot of you folks is, that for me there is an evaluative ethical boundary which lives instantly behind the bleeding edge and the rules that apply there (like an event horizon) don't necessarily immediately apply to the entire known universe outside of it. Whereas for a lot of you folks, anytime anything happens at the bleeding edge you do want instant, unexamined ethical carte blanche to apply the same technique the next day to your pet 5.10, and the next guy to the 5.8 he's developing out of the goodness of his heart in an unselfish act of 'community service'.

 

Rap-bolting is exactly such a method to me - my preference by far would have been that rap-bolting have never escaped into the wild of climbs of a lower grade then the practice was initially developed for. I'm no fan of bolting, period - lead, rap, power, hand - I consider them at best an occasional necessary evil. The use of them to push the boundaries of difficulty in climbing I get and can grudgingly accept; the use of them to simply to provide access to suburban hordes I do not.

 

For me it isn't a matter of elitism - it's a matter of believing some things that happen at the bleeding edge should at times stay at that grade and not instantly back-propogate all the way down to 5.6's. I admit it's an inherently different perspective, but one I've held for thirty-three years of climbing and I'm not going to change it now. And by those measures I still consider the line on Prusik a stellar trad and free climbing route. IB on the otherhand - entirely aside from the land management and legal issues - is, for me, a one-ride alpine theme park conceived and put up by people who simply do not know the difference.

 

rapidly closing in on? People are onsighting 5.14b and c now on sport routes...and alan watts damn near onsighted citypark placing his gear almost two decades ago...

Edited June 13, 2007 by RuMR

[RuMR]

...the talented climbers freeing big walls in yosemite are sometimes resorting to tactics and style that are outside of "traditional" means IMHO. i think they did free it, but if they TRed it and put in rapp bolts, it was not done by traditional means.

 

...

 

my question is, "is it acceptable to rapp bolt in wilderness areas?" pretty simple really. what i get from joes answer is sometimes.

Hawk, trust me - I wish it were that simple. And, yes, the Nose was freed by using rap-placed bolts and El Cap is a wilderness area. Would I personally have done it on either the Nose or Prusik - no. But again, I'm not so quick to judge at that bleeding edge or assume there are never exceptions worth making. My concerns revolve more around efforts to make those exceptions the norm. The easiest way would be to simply avoid all such exceptional situations, but we both know that isn't particularly realistic as Harding, Jardine, and Hill have all shown.

you and your "bleeding edge" are a complete double standard...and yes,it is ambiguous...you are about as clear as mud...

[RuMR]

JOSEPH = Bush administration logic...or 1984 double speak...

[kevbone]

Right on JH……let us know when you climb the route on gear! But it has to be the route…..not 20 feet left or 20 feet right. Keep to the bolt line and don’t clip any bolts.

 

Kevin, fortunately that isn't how or why I climb. The IB 'developers' didn't hold to the original line - I don't intend to hold to either of them.

 

Hold to the original line? Was that their goal? And ……since you have not climbed it……I am sure you will agree you really don’t know if they held to the original line…..more speculation from you’re camp. How can you comment on a line, original or not, that you have never witnessed on your own? Where do you get your info from? A book? The web?

 

If you think the line is an atrocity…..try climbing it on the bolted line and not clip any of the bolts…….that would be impressive. Other wise you are not climbing IB…..just Mt. Garfield.

 

[kevbone]

But again, I'm not so quick to judge at that bleeding edge or assume there are never exceptions worth making.

 

Yes you are.

[RuMR]

for the record, the bolts should be removed due to the illegality of placing them with a motorized drill, whether they knew or not where the border was...my opinion

[JosephH]

But again, I'm not so quick to judge at that bleeding edge or assume there are never exceptions worth making.

Yes you are.

Mt. Garfield is the only thing bleeding when it comes to IB. There is nothing exceptional about it except the extent and length of its medocrity and mendacity.

[RuMR]

wow...big words!!

[Alex]

"There is nothing exceptional about it except the extent and length of its medocrity and mendacity."

 

I like reading your posts in general, Joseph, but whenever you make personal value statements about a route that by your own admission you have not personally seen or even attempted or completed, you just look like an idiot.

[mattp]

I'd have to say that I don't get this "if you have not climbed it you are not qualified to judge it" comment. Given Joseph's consistent views on these topics, can any of us doubt what his conclusion would be if he actually climbed the route? I suppose you may dismiss his opinion about whether it was well done or not as compared to other climbs within its genre, based on the idea that his judgment on this question is not finely tuned since this is not his kind of climbing anyway, but I don't think you can say "you have no right to an opinion unless you climb it."

 

Reasonable minds can differ as to the quality of the route, whether it is the most important issue in Washington climbing or even important at all, and what would be the merits of removing or maintaining it, or any number of other things. In my opinon you don't have to climb every route in Wasington to have an opinion about a style of climbing.

[matt_m]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up before. How do those in the "anti-IB" camp feel about climbs similar to IB. Crest Jewel Direct for example? It wasn't rap bolted but is certainly in the same camp. How does IB differ from some of the stuff on Mt Yam etc? (never been there but have friends with reliable descriptions)

 

Joseph - just a heads up, having looked my self. The "natural" line you seek will mainly be low quality and loose climbing. Bring pins.

 

Frankly, IB is so ingrained in CC.com history and legend that it needs to remain so a good bolt debate can occur every year. If you take down the lightning rod it may strike elsewhere and do more damage.

 

As I do every year, it's worth pointing out to all the new readers (if you've made it this far) that IB is really only a big deal on CC.com. The VAST VAST majority of climbers out there don't know about it or know enough about it to realize it's a not an issue to loose sleep over.

[JosephH]

"There is nothing exceptional about it except the extent and length of its medocrity and mendacity."

 

I like reading your posts in general, Joseph, but whenever you make personal value statements about a route that by your own admission you have not personally seen or even attempted or completed, you just look like an idiot.

 

You are equally free here to laud the exceptional qualities and bleeding edge attributes IB lends to climbing. I don't need to climb a 22 pitches of bolts to make 'value statements' about its existence or the trade-offs of establishing such a route where land managers would take exception to it.

[kevbone]

But you don't have to climb a route to have an opinion.

 

 

Sure he can have an opinion. But will I respect his opinion……is the issue IMO. JH is calling it an abortion and an atrocity without ever laying his own eyes on it. I have asked him this with no response. Where does he get his info? From someone else. Which means he hates it strictly on hearsay. Or he just hates the idea…….which we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

JH….if you want to hate an idea…..try hating something that effects lives…….like the current administration. I will hate it with you.

 

You can’t say shit about a movie you have not seen; you have no foundation to dis the movie just upon what others tell you about it. What make this different?

 

[RuMR]

I'd have to say that I don't get this "if you have not climbed it you are not qualified to judge it" comment. Given Joseph's consistent views on these topics, can any of us doubt what his conclusion would be if he actually climbed the route? I suppose you may dismiss his opinion about whether it was well done or not as compared to other climbs within its genre, based on the idea that his judgment on this question is not finely tuned since this is not his kind of climbing anyway, but I don't think you can say "you have no right to an opinion unless you climb it."

 

Reasonable minds can differ as to the quality of the route, whether it is the most important issue in Washington climbing or even important at all, and what would be the merits of removing or maintaining it, or any number of other things. You don't have to climb a route to have an opinion about a style of climbing.

joseph is only consistent in his inconsistency!

[Raindawg]

But I also recognize there are limits to free climbing - the odds of seeing free, ground up onsight trad 5.16 FA's is pretty damn slim no matter how much you want to look backwards and say "but 5.11 was the top end just xxx years ago".

 

Not necessarily....they'll just make the shoes stickier, much how the appearance of Firé's and their technological offspring produced a grand leap in "difficulty". Try climbing some of those big numbers in E.B.'s. Hard or impossible, ain't it. Even harder if you refuse to hang-dog and rehearse. Make the shoes stickier and change the rules and there y'all go!

 

"There is nothing exceptional about it except the extent and length of its medocrity and mendacity."

 

I like reading your posts in general, Joseph, but whenever you make personal value statements about a route that by your own admission you have not personally seen or even attempted or completed, you just look like an idiot.

 

I, like Joseph, know enough about the nature of the route, it's location and the style of its creation to utterly oppose it both conceptually and in terms of its physical existence. Assuming the information about the route is accurate, and we all seem to agree on the basic "facts", then how will climbing the route detract from the fact that it is a rap-placed sport-trail on a mountain in the wilderness? While you're at it, see the comments offered to "Kevbone" a few pages back on the bogus notion of "don't knock it until you've tried it."

 

 

[kevbone]

Rain….if you are as smart as you say you are…….then haven’t you been taught the concept of “you must try everything at least once, before you judge”……hell that was the words to live by when I was 18 or so and influenced by everything.

 

And please don’t come back with the “do I have to try killing and heroin and pick forking babies” routine before I judge it? You know what I am talking about. And if you do not…..you are not as smart as you tell people you are.

 

Now shut up and go climb it. Come back with your opinion and I will at the very least respect it more.

 

click here

 

[JosephH]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up before. How do those in the "anti-IB" camp feel about climbs similar to IB. Crest Jewel Direct for example? It wasn't rap bolted but is certainly in the same camp. How does IB differ from some of the stuff on Mt Yam etc? (never been there but have friends with reliable descriptions)

For me it's the fact that both are in established climbing areas. IB flirts with a wilderness area and if someone wanted to establish a new Potrero-like sport area there they damn well should have contacted the land managers of record and sat down with them ahead of time. It's just common sense and courtesy. For myself lines like those going up on the Hulk at all grades are much more representative of the spirit of what this kind of climbing can be about.

 

Joseph - just a heads up, having looked my self. The "natural" line you seek will mainly be low quality and loose climbing. Bring pins.

Thanks much for the heads up - given the history up there I'd bail before using pins.

[Raindawg]

Rain….if you are as smart as you say you are…….then haven’t you been taught the concept of “you must try everything at least once, before you judge”……hell that was the words to live by when I was 18 or so and influenced by everything.

 

I was never taught that. I was taught to THINK first. That's why I'm still alive. How old are you? 18 1/2?

 

And please don’t come back with the “do I have to try killing and heroin and pick forking babies” routine before I judge it? You know what I am talking about. And if you do not…..you are not as smart as you tell people you are.

 

I never told anyone I was "smart". You must have arrived at that conclusion yourself.

But I do know that YOU ARE WOEFULLY PHILOSOPHICALLY IMPAIRED.

 

Now shut up and go climb it. Come back with your opinion and I will at the very least respect it more.

 

You also have a very short memory.

 

a) YOUR respect means zilch to me;

b) reread some of the previous pages and refresh yourself on the

commentary above before you pop off;

c) the only time I'd climb I.B. would be for the purpose of erasure, and if I had the time necessary to do the job properly, I certainly have the inclination. Unlike you, I don't have time on my hands to post over 5,000 mostly inane, posts on a climbing bulletin board.

 

Away with you now!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RuMR]

Rain.if you are as smart as you say you are.then havent you been taught the concept of you must try everything at least once, before you judgehell that was the words to live by when I was 18 or so and influenced by everything.

 

I was never taught that. I was taught to THINK first. That's why I'm still alive. How old are you? 18 1/2?

 

And please dont come back with the do I have to try killing and heroin and pick forking babies routine before I judge it? You know what I am talking about. And if you do not..you are not as smart as you tell people you are.

 

I never told anyone I was "smart". You must have arrived at that conclusion yourself.

But I do know that YOU ARE WOEFULLY PHILOSOPHICALLY IMPAIRED.

 

Now shut up and go climb it. Come back with your opinion and I will at the very least respect it more.

 

You also have a very short memory.

 

a) YOUR respect means zilch to me;

b) reread some of the previous pages and refresh yourself on the

commentary above before you pop off;

c) the only time I'd climb I.B. would be for the purpose of erasure, and if I had the time necessary to do the job properly, I certainly have the inclination. Unlike you, I don't have time on my hands to post over 5,000 mostly inane, posts on a climbing bulletin board.

 

Away with you now!

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh... i don't know, your clown posts are the definition of "inane"

[kevbone]

I was never taught that. I was taught to THINK first. That's why I'm still alive. How old are you?

 

That is too bad you were not taught that. Try it….before you judge it…..pretty simple.

 

 

I never told anyone I was "smart". You must have arrived at that conclusion yourself.

But I do know that YOU ARE WOEFULLY PHILOSOPHICALLY IMPAIRED.

 

Ok…..so you never told anyone that…..but you certainly imply it. Over and over and over again.

 

 

You also have a very short memory.

 

Actually I have an amazing memory……ask anyone who climbs with me…..I am Mr. Beta……why……because I remember everything about climbs.

 

 

a) YOUR respect means zilch to me;

 

Come on…..yes it does.

 

b) reread some of the previous pages and refresh yourself on the

commentary above before you pop off;

 

Reread what? All your elitist prick posts? No thanks……lets move forward…..shall we?

 

 

Away with you now!

 

That it?

 

I preferred the pee wee pic instead.

[Raindawg]

Reread what? All your elitist prick posts? No thanks……lets move forward…..shall we?

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that in "real-life" you are a lot smarter than the "Kevbone" on the internet.

Not so long ago, you were kind of a likeable nice, fellow....and in the last year, you've turned into a real world-class jackass...I speculate that you decided to give being a jackass a try so you could have a "legitimate" opinion about it and found out that you liked it!

 

Here...you go...

 

Pee-Wee Herman says:

 

"Go home and get your shine-box!"

 

I'm done with you.

 

 

 

 

[kevbone]

Want a shine?

[billcoe]

Want a shine?

 

 

[billcoe]

 

Pee Wee NOT shining. Opps, hand got stuck in the cut-out bottomed popcorn again.