Another accident on Hood

[Clavote]

How about being smart enough to not go up with bad weather coming in? Gee ,,, theres an idea.

 

Reliance on post incident recovery/rescue gadgets is not very smart, nor is it what moutaineering is about.

 

These people were stupid or thought it would be fun to get rescued and get their names in the news. The news media eats this shit up. And self reliant mountaineers pay for it all with more regulations and less freedom.

 

 

I wonder if they will be embarrassed?

 

When something goes wrong, my first thought is "man, this is going to be embarrasing" "people are going to think I'm stupid".

 

The possibility of embarassment has been a good incentive not to do stupid things.

 

Natural Selection never takes a break.

 

 

[crazy_t]

Cheers on the good news! Buy that dog a steak...

Edited February 19, 2007 by crazy_t

[billcoe]

.......I don't respect anyone's decision to bring a dog up there. WTF? That dog isn't trained to climb. That dog can't guage a ledge. That dog didn't make a choice to go up a mountain in these conditions. I'm an animal lover and freak out in the az summer when dog owners don't see fit to supply their overly panting dogs water when walking them in 100 degree weather. I pray, more than anything, that dog makes it off the mountain. I pray that his owners do too, but if the dog don't, well so much for my sympathies for its owner.

________________________________________________________

 

You might reconsider your position.

 

Once, years ago, I went up with my girlfriend and dog, camped on the edge of W.R. canyon, got up early to solo Wyeast (Told the dog to stay -left the sleeping wife and dog with the tent back in the dark). Looked back after a while, thought I saw the dog so I ducked down and sure enough it was her. Walked her back to the tent and said "stay", which always worked on this normally obeidient dog. She stayed till I was out of sight and then headed up to me again. (I was keep an eye out for her so didnt' get as far that time).

 

Didn't take the dog that trip - feeling as you do. However, we did go out later and started working on various shorter, more manageble, things. That damn dog could consistantly get up 70-80 degree slopes. I never cut her tonails and she'd just crampon right in. She just friggan loved heading out with me, although I never worked up the courage to really test her skill on like a north side route.

 

Later I'd heard that Peter Gayeskas dog had summited Hood about 25 times by various routes, and most of the other Cascade shield volcanoes as well. I always worried most about her eyes, but Gayeska never shielded his dogs eyes and it was fine.

 

Dogs are awesome in the mountains.

[motomagik]

I read that the climbers were able to walk out with their rescuers. Then why could they not walk out on their own? I'm sure there is probably details we are missing, but it seems to me that if these people had any knowledge of the mountian they were climbing at all they would have:

 

a. not been up there in the first place - the bad weather moving in Saturday night was forecast well in advance. When they decided not to summit on saturday why not go all the way down instead of waiting for the whiteout to come in?

 

b. realized where they were in the am when the weather cleared and hiked out through the White River Snow Park (assuming they could not get back up the slope they had fallen).

 

c. not had put their beloved pet in danger. There is no excuse for this. I bring my dog everywhere, including the crags, and up many mts including Hood and Adams (IN GOOD WEATHER)because he loves it, but if I was insistent on going climbing with even the slightest chance of an iffy forecast, I would leave my dog at home. I could never live with myself if something happened to my dog because i brought it climbing when I shouldn't have. Terrible judgement call, I'm sorry.

 

I think I'm changing my opinion on the MLU issue. I used to think that maybe climbers should be required to use them, but now it seems like people think they have some kind of safety net. Instead of learning to be self sufficient, and make good choices they can just hit their little button and get rescued... kind of crazy.

[CUINOZ]

Being stupid, meaningless and an idiot as described by (dmuja) isn't so bad but seems to be pointless for this thread.

[Clavote]

First, thanks to all the rescuers helping in the effort. Second, no second guessing as to why these climbers are out there. I respect their desire and right to do so in whatever conditions they feel capable of doing it in. However, I know I will get reamed for this but, I don't respect anyone's decision to bring a dog up there. WTF? That dog isn't trained to climb. That dog can't guage a ledge. That dog didn't make a choice to go up a mountain in these conditions. I'm an animal lover and freak out in the az summer when dog owners don't see fit to supply their overly panting dogs water when walking them in 100 degree weather. I pray, more than anything, that dog makes it off the mountain. I pray that his owners do too, but if the dog don't, well so much for my sympathies for its owner.

 

 

You must have meant to post that on the PETA board.

 

Stupid humans!

 

One question: Why didn't the dog run down to timberline lodge, through the front lobby and up to the front desk and bark like Lassie until the front desk lady says's

"what's wrong boy?", your owners are in a snow cave at 8300 feet near IS"

"bark, bark"

"we'll follow you boy, take us to your owners"

And then the calvary shows up with hot cocoa and a free cat ride down to the lodge for a press conference?

 

Maybe it's not a mountain breed like that huge St. Bernard dog that I've seem roaming timberline in years past.

[ketch]

How does your MLU work when you're alone?

 

I solo a lot and something like an MLU is dead weight for me.

 

In trips to Alaska I take a PLU which is similar to a boat EPIRB. Uses the same satellite frequencies and contacts SAR via the same satellites. In Alaska this seems to work real well for people in the bush.

 

MLUs are more like avalanche beacons. Nice if you have a bunch of other people around with probes and shovels.

 

You are close to right on. The MLU is a transmitter similar to an avy beacon. It is on a differant wavelength and power though. When activated it can be trianglated from a much greater distance. They only work on Mt Hood (the only place with the recievers) and they do not work like a beacon for one part of the party to find the others.

 

What is nice is that if an outside source has a reciever on they will know that someone in trouble. However, they do not "call for help" like an PLB or EPIRB. Thus someone at home must monitor for your signal or be looking for it.

 

Unless you are on Hood stay with your PLB and I would even use it on Hood as opposed to the MLU anyway.

[sobo]

..."what's wrong boy?", your owners are in a snow cave at 8300 feet near IS"

 

"BARK, BARK, BARK!"

"Oh, right boy! Illumination Saddle is at 9,300 feet! Good catch!"

 

:laf:

[ryland_moore]

Hey, how did it go at Strobach a couple weeks back?

 

That Place rocks!

[ringlock]

Okay, just to clear up a few points...

 

The climbers had plenty of equipment, including warm gear, compasses, maps and a GPS in addition to the MLUs. They did not believe they could rely on the MLU instead of their judgment, but given prior climbing accidents this year on Hood they decided to bring them.

 

They were aware of the weather forecast, but they did what many of us have done before--decided to be optimists. They stayed the night in snow caves at Illumination before descending. In the morning, they followed a compass reading taken the night before when it was clear, but in the whiteout didn't realize they'd overshot the Palmer. You know how it is--you can't even see the lift towers much less the terrain. Visibility was so low 3 of them slipped in to White River Canyon before they knew what happened. The other 5 weren't able to find them, called in, and were instructed to build a snow cave.

 

Two of the 3 were banged up. One had hit her head in the fall and was initially showing signs of concussion, so after trying for about 40 minutes to continue, they made the decision to seek shelter. Also, the canyon walls above them were too corniced and icy for them to ascend directly with single axes. So, they called in and from that point had to stay in one location.

 

We're glad they're okay and grateful for the efforts of the rescuers and Timberline Lodge. We hope that this information is helpful--don't believe half the stuff you've been hearing from the media and online. And, next time, hopefully those of us sitting on the couch will have learned something from their experiences.

 

And once again, the dog is great in the mountains. It's definitely not the place for most dogs, but she's okay and knows how to handle herself in harsh conditions. We'll post her mountaineering CV later.

[billbob]

Being stupid, meaningless and an idiot as described by (dmuja) isn't so bad but seems to be pointless for this thread.

OMG, this is just begging for help. Somebody please....

[ryland_moore]

I understand about taking a compass bearing and then having difficulty staying on it in a whiteout, but the GPS would have prevented this if they had taken a point reading at Timberline. I have this stored in my GPS, so every time I am up there, I can get back to Timberline. If they had a track on the way up, then they could have easily followed it back and never would have ended up close to white river canyon. Even if they forgot to take a reading at Timberline, someone could have easily dropped down to the top of the Palmer lift and taken a point there, then followed the chair lift back down. I've had to do this several times when I couldn't tell rwhat was up or down in a whiteout and vis was down to 30 ft. with no depth perception at all. Mistakes were obviously made and a carefree attitidue seems to have been in play. It was awesome on Saturday, burt all climbers know that weather can turn on a dime in the Cascades, plu s a large system was shown moving in late Saturday.

 

I think there is a difference between being an optimist vs. being a realist in mountaineering during the winter. The margin of error can mean huge consequences being an optimistic is what is costing a ton of money and placing rescuers and volunteers in harms way.

 

Having gear does not make you safe. Knowing how to use it can.

 

Are you one of the 5 who were "rescued" last night?

[kjlfaiejlifli]

You must have meant to post that on the PETA board.

 

Nope. Aside from a few of their efforts (puppy mills, animal testing, and general dog abuse), I don't really support PETA. I also didn't post to their board because they aren't bringing dogs up on mountains in dangerous and potentially hypothermic weather. I don't object to climbing with a dog in good weather, but doing it in snow is ridiculously stupid and dangerous.

 

 

[lbeam]

Glad to hear all will be ok!

 

I am for bringing the dog. My dog loves it and there is no way we could get out of the house without her. She can tell what's going on when we are packing up our gear. And if we stay home for a weekend, boy does she let us know that we are pathetic.

Some dogs do real well outdoors, take em out and have some fun together. But maybe keep an eye on them in areas that tend to be more dangerous.

[gslater]

GPS would have prevented this if they had taken a point reading at Timberline. I have this stored in my GPS, so every time I am up there, I can get back to Timberline.

 

My GPS has not only Timberline, but also Silcox, the top of Palmer, the summit, and Crater Rock waypoints tucked away. Might as well have 'em, I figure...

 

I too will sit and wait to hear the details about what actually happened on this one, but I'm a bit dumbfounded how a group can be "well-equipped", including GPS, and leave IS just to apparently stumble over the edge into the WR canyon. Sounds like someone might need a little bit of nav practice.

 

Glad to hear all are apparently OK, especially the pooch.

[hopper_62]

i'm pretty sure i read in oregon high that a dog holds the record for most assents on hood.

[sobo]

Hey, how did it go at Strobach a couple weeks back?

 

That Place rocks!

 

Sweet! Way to snag the FA there on Second from the Left. I'm with Alex on that one - I've never seen it come down to the ground before.

 

And it seems from your TR that you forgot this priceless little gem from my PM prior your departure...

 

Drive to the end of 609 (make damn sure you're not driving to the end of 1201 - I did that once. big PITA!).

:laf:

[ryland_moore]

Yeah, we were flying so fast that we missed it but doubled back before trekking in there!

[motomagik]

I am for bringing the dog. My dog loves it and there is no way we could get out of the house without her. She can tell what's going on when we are packing up our gear. And if we stay home for a weekend, boy does she let us know that we are pathetic.

Some dogs do real well outdoors, take em out and have some fun together. But maybe keep an eye on them in areas that tend to be more dangerous.

 

It's not about whether or not the dog likes to go outside. ALL dogs like to go outside and do fun things. It's about exercising good judgement. If dogs could rationalize such things I'm sure any dog would rather stay at home and sleep, then to be put in dangerous situations - i.e. - possibly dying of hypothermia when it's owners get stranded by bad weather that they knew beforehand was coming, or breaking a leg and possibly having to be euthanized when said owners fall 150' down a cliff.

Dog owners owe it to their dogs to make good decisions. If you want to be dumb and ignore bad weather, that's your call, but the dogs don't have the luxury of deciding. I bet that dog would have been much happier on it's cozy dog bed at home.

[JosephH]

They were aware of the weather forecast, but they did what many of us have done before--decided to be optimists.

 

Here's three simple links for Mt. Hood climbers:

 

10 day forecast for Government Camp, OR - Weather.com

 

US Jetstream - Intellicast (note it's on top of us...)

 

US Pacific Sattelite Loop (Note the yellow and red blobs...)

 

These three links taken together are capable of rendering a very realistic weather scenario for 1-3 days so you don't have to rely on 'optimism' when facts are readily at hand.

[Clavote]

How does your MLU work when you're alone?

 

I solo a lot and something like an MLU is dead weight for me.

 

In trips to Alaska I take a PLU which is similar to a boat EPIRB. Uses the same satellite frequencies and contacts SAR via the same satellites. In Alaska this seems to work real well for people in the bush.

 

MLUs are more like avalanche beacons. Nice if you have a bunch of other people around with probes and shovels.

 

You are close to right on. The MLU is a transmitter similar to an avy beacon. It is on a differant wavelength and power though. When activated it can be trianglated from a much greater distance. They only work on Mt Hood (the only place with the recievers) and they do not work like a beacon for one part of the party to find the others.

 

What is nice is that if an outside source has a reciever on they will know that someone in trouble. However, they do not "call for help" like an PLB or EPIRB. Thus someone at home must monitor for your signal or be looking for it.

 

Unless you are on Hood stay with your PLB and I would even use it on Hood as opposed to the MLU anyway.

 

My thoughts exactly about using a PLB on Hood.

 

Information would be transmitted such as location coordinates for SAR to find someone. They just would not know if it was a heart attack or twisted ankle. But they will come get you so you better have a pretty good reason to summon them.

 

I would have to get myself seriously in to trouble to actually use it. I would rather avoid any problems wherever possible.

Or use my Personal Computation Unit to make good decisions.

 

I have been renting in Alaska, but I want to buy my own ACR PLB.

 

PLB..other assorted life necessities..PLB...new tires....PLB....Food...PLB...large St. Bernard dog...PLB

[Lars Larceny]

Nate Thompson, a Clackamas County sheriff's deputy, said that if the climbers did not have the locater units, "we would have been tracking them with cell phones which put them at 5,300 feet" well below the 7,300-foot level where they were found.

[JosephH]

 

'My understanding is that they are experienced rock climbers, but not necessarily experienced in mountain climbing,'' Gubele said.

[ryland_moore]

Nate Thompson, a Clackamas County sheriff's deputy, said that if the climbers did not have the locater units, "we would have been tracking them with cell phones which put them at 5,300 feet" well below the 7,300-foot level where they were found.

 

Yes, but they were using their cell phones and if they actually did have a GPS unit as discussed, they could have read off the GPS their exact location to the rescuers.....Regardless, there was no need for an MLU to be used in this rescue scenario and it did not provide them with any new information that the rescue team could not have garnered from what the climbers were carrying already.

[ryland_moore]

I have yet to see a rescque scenario where an MLU was the sole reason for a rescue. Iain had some information on a previous post about a month ago, but it appeared that it was not the only reason why the climber was rescued.

 

I would also like to know if SAR was notified first becasue of the cell phone calls by the climbers or the fact that the MLU was triggered. Did SAR only know that the MLU was going off becasue of a cell phone call? Like others have said, the MLU Lsignals hav to be monitored by humans and if no one is watching then they will not know a signal has been triggered.

 

Same thing with the guy from Lake O and the woman from HR injured earlier this year. He triggered his MLU but also had a cell phone and a doctor who crossed his path while descending. The MLU did not start the rescue, the doctor and the cell phone did.