Chopping Bolts?

[TimL]

I know I'm going to get tons of shit for this here in Spain, but there are more than several climbs, bolted cracks, that I'm going to "restore" here in the next year. The thing is that I've never drilled a bolt and never pulled a bolt. Before I do anything I would like some pointers on how to pull a bolt without damaging the rock too much and then what is the best way patch up the hole? Keep in mind, I don't want this to be the beginning of a huge bolting debate, just the 1,2,3's of doing some good work.

Edited December 22, 2006 by TimL

[Off_White]

A few important questions:

 

What kind of rock?

Is the rock surrounding the bolts smooth and flat or rough and convoluted?

What kind of bolts?

 

There has been good info on doing this in other threads here, as well as on Supertopo.

 

"Chopping" is sort of a value laden verb, "removing" might make fewer knees jerk on either side of the issue. Sounds like a worthy project, take pictures and tell stories. I'll be particularly interested to hear if you can sway the locals to your point of view.

[pope]

Bravo! Way to export American values to the Olde World. Can't say I'm an expert but according to a few saints who routinely perform this service, the best solution is often to saw off the bolt, then use a large punch to knock it deeper into the hole, followed by cosmetic amendments.

[tradclimbguy]

While bolting cracks in my mind is lame, you should definitely consider the surrounding area. If you went and removed the bolts on the few cracks at the sinks or in Tensleep you'd be strung up and hung.

 

If it's a worthy project then go for it, but if your standing on a high horse in a sea of bolted climbs and chop em just cause YOU have a rack then leave them be. Sporto's have their area too, no need to turn a classic into the never done "trad" route because nobody has anything more than 12 quickdraws.

 

Off_White is correct on Supertopo, check out some of those threads and maybe ask a question or two over there.

 

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=286252&tn=20

[billcoe]

Tradguy, I love looking at pics like that. Nice to see Joes pics of old bolts pulled at Beacon too.

 

TimL, I hope that you are not being an ugly American and cramming down our values on this issue down their throats, but that you are replacing bad bolts with good. IMO, you should leave their stuff alone, but I'm not there and ultimatly it's your call. You might consider heading out and doing some super classic FA's in good style as a way to show them the way.

 

I know you don't want a lecture.

 

Here's another thread on Supertopo called "bolt chopping instructions" and it's lots of stuff in it.

 

Supertopo How to Chop a Bolt link

 

 

 

anyway

 

Heres' the info from the supertopo thread (cut and pasted the whole page:

______________________________________________________________

 

 

Topic Author:

JIMB

 

Trad climber

From: Please add to the knowledge base in this post as an attempt to slow down and correct the gym climber mentality which is hitting our sport. For some reason there is a dearth of info on the web, and if you type in Chopping bolts, or Removing bolts, or How do I get bolts out of my climbing area after some jackass f*ed it up. All you get is "oh, you shouldn't chop the bolts cause it will damage the rock". WTF? Somebody decides, incorrectly, to just put them in and you have to leave them? That’s like a kid with a spray paint can telling you to leave the grafitti mess alone he made because if you try to clean it up it will mess up the wall: WTF? You already messed the wall up you dumbass. I do not expect this to be anything other than a rear-guard action which in the end will fail. Those gym climbers do not understand why bolts can't be used about everywhere, and I don't think some old F*cks like us will change that attitude, they're coming into the sport as fast as a cockroach infestation in a flour mill. However, I think if some chicken’s bolts get yanked IMMEDIATELY, then like graffiti "artists" they will go elsewhere. No compromise.

 

Like graffiti artists, you hear the rationales, "Hey - I created that special artwork on the rocks, what right do you have to remove it" or "If you don't like it then don't clip it" kind of crap. So if you come over to my house and sh#t in the corner because it makes you feel good, I can't clean it up because I might smear some sh#t around and make a mess? WET?

 

Ignore those weak young fools and their ignorant questions and statements. We have more right, and a duty, to correct that affront to an intelligent person’s sensibility and to do so in a way to minimize damage. Following this method, all that is left is the original hole the first jackass with a drill made: and even that is patched to perfection if you do it right.

 

Without further pre-amble:

 

 

Climbing Bolt and anchor removal instructions

 

Generally I don’t cotton much too removing bolts. I’ve had to do it a few times, so here are some points on instructions for removing bolts. I'm assuming that the party who will be restoring the rock has done the pre-chop discussion.

 

Do not "Chop Bolts" and do not follow the ASCA "American Safe Climbing Association" instructions for putting a tuning fork #4 modified Lost Arrow under the thing and working it out. That’s bullshit and inefficient as hell unless you’re Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. For what they are doing, ie, pulling out old rusty mank, primarily 30-50 year old Warren Harding 1/4 split shank construction bolt, it will work fine. Won’t work worth a f*ck for what you want though. And generally leave that crowbar at home unless you are pulling glue ins, way too much work and mess to try and yank a bolt out. Do that if you want to replace one, not for restoration projects.

 

Here are some real instructions to “chop” or remove a bolt. May I highly suggest that you try this before you go up there. Go to a choss rock and drill and install a bolt with a hanger, just like a real one. Practice.

 

You may need some or all of this and I might have missed something:

1– big assed Hammer (ball peen style preferred)

metal drift pin or punch for smacking the stud below grade if you have a claw hammer not a ball peen.

1 cordless sawzall "the trad climbers friend" or hacksaw -10-14 TPI blades for your saw.

1 pair of regular style Vise Grips

Cold chisel or lost arrow

Epoxy putty

½ breaker bar or socket wrench

2 sizes of deep sockets, to fit 3/8 wedge anchors or 5 piece Rawl(Powers brand) bolts which are different sized.

A box end wrench- or open end, which will cover the 2 sizes you might need.

Gloves and safety eyeware are nice

Don’t bring a crowbar unless you are removing Glue-ins, then make sure it’s a stout 3 footer unless you are Arnold.

1 partner with great strength wouldn’t hurt either.

 

 

Buy a 1/2 breaker bar or heavy duty socket wrench. Don't cheap out here. Make sure it's a long one, @ 2' long. Longer is better, socket wrench is better than a breaker bar, as you'll find the first time you match wits with a bolt placed in a corner. The size of socket you need differs for a 3/8 wedge anchor and a 5 piece Rawl bolt. Buy the deep socket version for both sizes. Sure that will cost more but that’s what you want up there. Don't come pissing and moaning later to me if you just use a regular socket. Sometimes that works, sometimes the stud gets too high on the wedge anchor for a standard depth socket to work.

 

Listen closely, this is the important part. PUT THE WRENCH ON THE NUT AND TIGHTEN IT. Within seconds the damn thing will have broken flush, just perfect and you're done, finished and gone in 15 seconds. Rarely will this not do the trick, but there are moments. At this point, take some Epoxy putty, NOT fu*cking regular 2 part runny messy epoxy that’s going to run all over f*ck and make a F*ed up mess. You can get the stuff from Home Depot as well. If you keep it warm it's easier to kneed, as you need to do that to activate the 2 part epoxie process. Although they stopped carrying the wood color is dead on the money for most sandstones, the grey concrete stuff for basalt, for Granite, you don’t have a perfect choice or any colors close, you could use the metal color, but it will be visible unless you take a bunch of granite pebbles from the base and set one on each hole. You can also buy the wood fill color epoxy and mix it with the grey to lighten it somewhat. Resist the temptation to smear the sh#t all over the place. Fill the hole and only the hole: your goal is that the rainwater won't penetrate and freeze (freeze thaw cycle rules up there in the winter) then move on. If you spend more that 1 min on each bolt, it’s because you’re lazy, disorganized and/or a pussy. Unless you are in a cramped position of course.

 

For Rawl 5 piece, try to just unscrew it, if the winter has caused the threads to seize, and it only takes @ 2years in the mountains in No Cal. for this to happen on a non-stainless 5 piece, the hex head will pop right off. Don't bother fishing out the sleeve which is left in the hole. If your goal is a clean patch to prevent water infiltration, twisting it off so it breaks is better as then you have a solid base for the putty. That's my opinion.

 

There a few times where that wedge anchor will break slightly high or the wedge anchor didn’t set well originally and it spins. For the high break, simple, tap it down and then epoxy. If it’s a loose spinner wedge anchor, whew, this is where the boys get separated from the men. If the original drillers drilled it deeper than needed, you can do 1 of 2 things. With the nut backed out to within 2 threads, whack it down. If when down it doesn’t bottom out, take the nut off and hope there’s clearance for the coup de grace which will be the final whack of the hammer to make it flush. If not, try cranking it back tight with the wrench, it might lock and then you can just twist the nut off. Or you might consider doing this first which will work in either case, take a pair of vise grips to the stud. Lock it hard. If the damn things say “Made in Taiwan” on it, I’ll kick your ass. There is a difference in “Vice-Grip” brand and it’s the wrong venue for you to learn that lesson, spend the extra money. Anyway, clip the vise grip brand vise grips onto the stud and take an open or box end wrench (which was already put on the nut if it was a box end) and crank it tight. Most likely you won’t twist it off, not enough leverage. So then you back the nut off leaving the flat washer on to help protect the rock, saw the stud flush, Whack-epoxy-pebbles-move on etc etc. Here’s where it gets pissy. A cordless sawzall with the Milwaukee brand 14 TPI (tooth per inch) will run through that stud in @ 10 seconds. Most brands of cordless saws have a real slick quick change feature that allows you to put a blade in or change it out if it dulls with your fingers in @ 5 seconds. But this is a wilderness area, so you have to use a regular hacksaw. Stanley makes one that tensions very strong. Get quality and save yourself about a thousand saw strokes. Pay attention to the blades you buy as well. 10-14 TPI should work for you. Anyway, if you saw @ ½ way you can whack it back and forth a couple of times with the hammer and it will metal fatigue right off, take care that you don’t spall the rock, you don't want to make a big mess. If done properly, this will be invisible from 3 feet away.

 

Glue ins are real easy to deal with. Get a 3’ long crowbar; stick the chisel end into the opening, and twist counter clockwise. The strongest version of these bolts out there, the Petzl Bat’inox, despite the 50KN rating, will fall within 30 seconds of you doing this. The first 3 twists are the hardest, almost as hard as doing a pushup if you use your knees like a kid. Then it starts to get real easy, real quick to the point where you can do a hand job and spin it right out via hand. Remember that the bolt is still threaded, and it comes out counterclockwise, so bring a watch if you think you might forget that fact cause it’s important.

 

The split shank button head construction bolts, which look to be invincible as there is no obvious way to get it out, can be dealt with alacrity as well no matter if it’s a 3/8 or a ¼”. Just take your little cordless sawzall, the trad climber’s friend, and saw the head off. If it’s perfectly set, a cold chisel tap right under the head will make a mark for starting the cut. It takes 10-20 seconds to peel the head off with the trad climber’s friend and the hanger will fall right off. Tap and epoxy.

 

It's real work. Having quality tools will make removal quicker and almost easier than placing them the first time with a Bosch Bulldog. Now go do your duty and get her done.

 

This is a repost; I thought it would be timely.

 

Re: Bolt chopping instructions May 22, 2006, 03:26pm PST

Author:

Invader Zim

 

climber

From: Beverly Hills, CA You shouldn't chop the bolts cause it will damage the rock.

 

Re: Bolt chopping instructions May 22, 2006, 03:30pm PST

Author:

Mike.

 

climber

From: You shouldn't place the bolts cause it will damage the rock.

 

Re: Bolt chopping instructions May 22, 2006, 03:34pm PST

Author:

Dingus Milktoast

 

climber

From: NorCal You shouldn't climb cause it will damage the rock.

 

DMT

 

Re: Bolt chopping instructions May 22, 2006, 04:06pm PST

Author:

Loomis

 

climber

From: Praha, Ceska Republika You shouldn't post on climbing forum's, you expose yourself to ridicule.

 

Re: Bolt chopping instructions May 22, 2006, 04:24pm PST

Author:

dirtineye

 

Trad climber

From: the south Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

 

Re: Bolt chopping instructions May 22, 2006, 04:31pm PST

Author:

healyje

 

Trad climber

From: Portland, Oregon Colored epoxy sticks

 

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=113

 

Color mixing chart

 

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/mhk_cds/color_chart/Epoxy%20Sticks.pdf

 

From:

 

Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference thread

[billcoe]

One more real good, probably better link to Supertopo: This was the one I wanted the first time.

 

Supertopo Greg Barnes Joe healey JimB Hobo and Mike thread removing and rebolting

 

_______________________________________________________

 

Copied and pasted:

 

Same thread, cleaned up a little bit

 

Please post any information you think one might find useful. We're trying to stay more technical, less spray here.

Poster: Hobo

 

Pete:

 

So here's the scoop. When Cybele and I climbed North America Wall last fall, I found these bolts on the traverse up and left from Big Sur Ledge. It was very puzzling to me.

 

 

 

What you see below are two bolts side by side - an old one with the star head and aluminum hanger, and a new one. I cannot tell from the photo if the new bolt is stamped with ASCA or not, and I do not remember if this was the case. In other words I have no idea who placed the new bolts and when. I believe the McTopo guide says that ASCA replaced a bunch of bolts on NA Wall, however.

 

Here is a closeup of the old bolt. Sorry - I should have taken closeups of the new bolts too, but I didn't. What you see is everything I can show you. I recall there being about four to six bolts done this way, and they are in a more or less horizontal traverse right to left.

 

 

 

I am wondering why the old bolts were not pulled, and the new bolts placed in the existing holes?

 

1. It is hugely easier to pull out an old bolt with "tuning forks" and redrill the existing hole to a bigger diameter, and place the new 3/8" bolt in this drilled-out hole.

 

2. I have done this 23 times on Bermuda Dunes alone, and a few times on some other routes, too. It's not very hard once you get the hang of it! I have since learned from Dave Turner that you can sometimes funk out these old bolts, instead of using tuning forks. I wish I had known that on the Dunes because I'm quite certain some of those rusty quarter-inchers would have come out more quickly and easily this way. These old bolts with the star head, however, looked rather more robust than the ones on the Dunes.

 

3. And it's BECAUSE these bolts appear fairly robust, that I wonder why they needed to be replaced - retrobolted at all? Why not just leave the existing old ones? See, on a traverse, the maximum force you can generate on a fall is only 2x body weight, so it's not like you could ever rip a bunch of old bolts out should one of them fail. These decent older bolts probably could have stayed, ya know?

 

4. I am wondering if whomever added the new bolts thought, "Hey, these old bolts are pretty cool from an historical perspective, so I think I'll leave them in situ and just add the new bolts."

 

5. I cannot imagine the amount of work required to drill four to six brand new 3/8" holes! My elbows ache just thinking about it!

 

6. I like Erik Sloan, and for the most part support his efforts. I am not sure I am cool with this situation, however. And again, I have no clue who replaced these bolts. If it was Erik, I hope he will chime in with his story. If not, I'd like his take on them. And I hope whoever placed them will also chime in.

 

And Erik, if you're reading this, which I hope you will, let's get together this May and I'll pick up a few more bolts and rivets off ya to rebolt whatever El Cap obscurity I will surely end up climbing.

 

Cheers,

Pete

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greg Barnes

 

 

"Best way to replace bolts/rivits/rivets in a variety of situations?" Keeping it just to bolts, and just to Yosemite granite, this can still be a huge topic, so how about checking out the variety of articles (especially by Chris, Todd Vogel, and Duane Raleigh) here, then asking more specifics:

 

http://www.safeclimbing.org/education.htm

 

Those pictures are ridiculous, no reason not to replace the bolt in the original hole, it's easy to drill through the lead sleeve of a 1/4" Star-Dryvin with a 3/8" bit in a hand drill (don't try it with a 3/8" Star-Dryvin though, the bit will get stuck in the lead sleeve - as I found in a 45-minute-replacing-from-stance battle on the first bolt on the traverse on Arches Terrace)..

 

 

Mike

 

The most useful tool I've found for removing bolts is a form-setter's hammer (one-piece metal claw hammer with rubber grip, Estwing brand, etc.). I prefer it in place of a tuning fork because it allows more prying rather than chiseling to remove the bolt, usually less impacting on surrounding rock. A small, thin piece of masonite or similar material with a keeper cord can be used under the hammer fulcrum to protect the rock while prying. For chiseling behind hangers, strike it with a separate hammer.

 

On larger projects, a tuning fork will become uselessly bent, especially if you wield a 3lb mallet. Even some larger crow bars don't have the pulling power of a long claw hammer.

 

Cheers.

 

 

Joseph Healy’s shot of Beacon Rock Restoration Gear

 

 

 

There are times in our basalt where you aren't going to get the old one out for some reason without too much damage to the surrounding rock. Invariably the bolt will come out part way, however, allowing me to cut it off, push it back in and use colored expoxy sticks to make a very nearly invisible patch.

 

Theron was kind enough to make me up a couple of tuning forks (from some of Deucey's ebay pins) and I'm looking forward to using them this year...

 

 

 

Greg Barnes

 

As far as Mike's suggestion, I've found that prying tools such as claw hammers, small crowbars/prybars, etc, increase the chance of the bolt breaking compared to using a tuning fork (starting off with a thin piton to pop the bolt out a bit in either case). I've also found that using 2 tuning forks works better than 1 tuning fork and a funkness. This is for 1/4" only, if you're dealing with 5/16" buttonheads or other large bolts (or the variety of stuff you may find on a wall route), the beefy claw hammer may well be the best choice.

 

 

JIMB

Outside of the ASPCA retrobolt organization, for some reason there is a dearth of info on the web for just doing straight bolt removal. For REPLACING bolts, go to the "Safer Climbing" web site and see the Barnes post below. I'm not dissing them at all. However, if you type in Chopping bolts, or Removing bolts, or How do I get bolts out of my climbing area after some jackass f*ed it up in any search engine: all you get is posts that say something like "oh, you shouldn't chop the bolts cause it will damage the rock". WTF? That's like a kid with a spray paint can telling you to leave the grafitti mess he made alone because if you try to clean it up it will mess up the wall: WTF? You already messed the wall up you dumbass.

 

I am strictly addressing bolt removal, not replacement. REMOVAL only here.

 

I do not expect this to be anything other than a rear-guard action which in the end will fail. Those pussy bastards do not understand why bolts can't be used about everywhere, and I don't think some old school F*cks like us will change that attitude, they're coming into the sport as fast as a cockroach infestation in a flour mill. However, I think if some pussies bolts get yanked IMMEDIATELY, then like graffiti "artists" they will go elsewhere. No compromise. Like graffiti artists, you hear the rationals like "Hey, I created that special artwork on the rocks, what right do you have to remove it" or "don't clip it if you don't like it" kind of crap. So if you come over to my house and sh#t in the corner because it makes you feel good, I can't clean it up because I might smear some sh#t around and make a mess? WTF?

 

Ignore those pissant fools and their ignorant statements and attitudes. We have more right, and a duty, to correct that affront to an intellegent persons sensibility and to do so in a way to minimise damage. Following this method, all that is left is the origonal hole the first jackass with a drill made: and even that is patched to perfection if you do it right.

 

Without further pre-amble:

 

 

Climbing bolt and anchor removal instructions

 

Generally I don’t cotton much to removing bolts. I’ve had to do it a few times, so here’s some points on instructions for removing bolts. I'm assuming that the party who will be restoring the rock has done the pre-chop discussion.

 

Do not "Chop bolts" (they don't get chopped with a chissel despite wht Robbins tried on Dawn Wall) and do not follow the ASCA "American Safe Climbing Association" instructions for putting a tuning fork #4 modified Lost Arrow under the thing and working it out unless it's like the star dryvin above or an old manky 1/4 Rawl split shank and yoru intent is replacement. That’s bullshit and ineffecient as hell for straight removal unless you’re Arnold Schweartznegger in his prime. For what they are doing, ie, pulling out and replacing old rusty mank, primarily 30-50 year old Warren Harding 1/4 split shank construction bolt, it will work fine. Won’t work worth a f*ck for removing the brand new 3/8" diameter which was rap-bolted every 5 feet just 4 feet left of jamcrack route when that shows up. And generally leave that crowbar at home unless you are pulling glue ins, way too much work and mess to try and yank a bolt out. Do that if you want to replace one, not for restoration projects.

 

Here are some real instructions to “chop” or remove a bolt. May I highly suggest that you try this before you go up there. Go to a choss rock and drill and install a bolt with a hanger, just like a real one. Practice.

 

You may need some or all of this and I might have missed something, look in the pic above to see:

1– big assed Hammer (ball peen style prefered)

metal drift pin or punch for smacking the stud below grade if you have a claw hammer not a ball peen.

1 cordless sawzall "the trad climbers friend" or hacksaw -10-14 TPI blades for your saw.

1 pair of regular style Vise Grips

Cold chisel or lost arrow

Epoxy putty

½ breaker bar or long socket wrench

2 sizes of deep sockets, to fit 3/8 wedge anchors or 5 piece Rawl(Powers brand) bolts which are different sized.

A box end wrench- or open end, which will cover the 2 sizes you might need.

Gloves and safety eyeware are nice

Don’t bring a crowbar unless you are removing Glue-ins, then make sure it’s a stout 3 footer unless you are Arnold.

1 partner with great strength wouldn’t hurt either.

 

 

Buy a 1/2 breaker bar or heavy duty socket wrench, not a genaric 3/8 or 1/4". Don't cheap out here, buy quality, and big too. Make sure it's a long one, @ 2' long. Longer is better, socket wrench is better than a breaker bar, as you'll find the first time you match wits with a bolt placed in a corner. The size of socket you need differs for a 3/8 wedge anchor and a 5 piece Rawl bolt. Buy the deep socket version for both sizes. Sure that will cost more but thats what you want up there. Don't come pissing and moaning later to me if you just use a regular socket. Sometimes that works, sometimes the stud gets too high on the wedge anchor for a standard depth socket to work.

 

Listen closely, this is the important part. PUT THE WRENCH ON THE NUT AND TIGHTEN IT. Within seconds the damn thing will have broken flush, just perfect and you're done, finished and gone in 15 seconds. Rarely will this not do the trick, but there are moments. At this point, take some Epoxy putty, NOT fu*cking regular 2 part runny messy epoxy thats going to run all over f*ck and make a F*ed up mess. You can get the stuff from Home Depot or any hardware store and the link is above. Mix the wood color with some granite dust and it will disappear after you put it on the rock. If you keep it warm it's easier to kneed, as you need to do that to activate the 2 part epoxie process. For Granite, you don’t have a perfect choice or any colors close. Resist the temptation to smear the sh#t all over the place. Fill the hole and only the hole: your goal is that the rainwater won't penetrate and freeze thus weakening the rock (freeze thaw cycle rules up there in the winter) then move on. If you spend more that 1 min on each bolt, it’s because you’re lazy, disorganized and/or a pussy. Unless you are in a cramped position of course.

 

For Rawl 5 piece, try to just unscrew it, if the winters have caused the threads to seize, and it only takes @ 2years in the mountains for this to happen on a non-stainless 5 piece, the hex head will pop right off. Don't bother fishing out the sleeve which is left in the hole. If your goal is a clean patch to prevent water infiltration, twisting it off so it breaks is better as then you have a solid base for the putty. That's my opinion.

 

There a few times where that wedge anchor will break slightly high or the wedge anchor didn’t set well originally and it spins. For the high break, simple, tap it down and then epoxy. If it’s a loose spinner wedge anchor, whew, this is where the boys get separated from the men. If the original drillers drilled it deeper than needed, you can do 1 of 2 things. With the nut backed out to within 2 threads, whack it down. If when down it doesn’t bottom out, take the nut off and hope there’s clearance for the coup de grace which will be the final whack of the hammer to make it flush. If not, try cranking it back tight with the wrench, it might lock and then you can just twist the nut off. Or you might consider doing this first which will work in either case, take a pair of vise grips to the stud. Lock it hard. If the damn things say “Made in Taiwan” on it, I’ll kick your ass. There is a difference in “Vice-Grip” brand and it’s the wrong venue for you to learn that lesson, spend the extra money. Anyway, clip the vise grip brand vise grips onto the stud and take an open or box end wrench (which was already put on the nut if it was a box end) and crank it tight. Most likely you won’t twist it off, not enough leverage. So then you back the nut off leaving the flat washer on to help protect the rock, saw the stud flush, Whack-epoxy-pebbles-move on etc etc. Here’s where it gets pissy. A cordless sawzall with the 14 TPI (tooth per inch) will run through that stud in @ 10 seconds. They call that blade “the torch” cause its like torching a bolt with a welding torch it’s fast. Get a cordless sawzall that has a real slick quick change feature that allows you to put a blade in or change it out if it dulls with your fingers in @ 5 seconds. It use to be that you needed a allen wrench to replace blades anymore, not now, get a good quality cordless saw, like a Dewalt with the quick change feature. Stock up on blades too, they will dull quickly. But this is a wilderness area, you say, so you have to use a regular hacksaw. Stanley makes one that tensions very strong. Get quality and save yourself about a thousand saw strokes. Pay attention to the blades you buy as well. 10-14 TPI should work for you. Anyway, if you saw @ ½ way, or less, you can whack it back and forth a couple of times with the hammer and it will metal fatigue right off.

 

Glue ins are real easy to deal with. Get a long 3’ long crowbar; stick the chisel end into the opening, and twist counter clockwise. The strongest version of these bolts out there, the Petzl Bat’inox, despite the 50KN rating, will fall within 30 seconds of you doing the following. The first 3 twists are the hardest, almost as hard as doing a pushup if you use your knees like a kid. Then it starts to get real easy, real quick to the point where you can do a hand job and spin it right out via hand. Remember that the bolt is still threaded, and it comes out counterclockwise, so bring a watch if you think you might forget that fact cause it’s important. All the other, smaller glues ins will twist right off.

 

The split shank button head construction bolts and Petzel long-lifes, which look to be invincible as there is no obvious way to get them out, can be dealt with alacrity as well no matter if it’s a 3/8 or a ¼”. Just take your little cordless sawzall, the trad climber’s friend, and saw the head off. If it’s perfectly set, a cold chisel tap right under the head will make a mark for starting the cut. It takes 10-20 seconds to peel the head off with the trad climber’s friend and the hanger will fall right off. Tap and epoxy.

 

It's real work. Having quality tools will make removal quicker and almost easier than placing them the first time with a fully charged, brand new, I just started climbing in the gym and bought a Bosch Bulldog drill. Now go do your duty and get her done.

 

 

 

 

Healyje

 

JimB, good post. That's pretty much an exact description of what we've employed at Beacon Rock with overtightening to breaking with a large 1/2" breaker bar being one of the primary tactics we use. But we have fragile rock and a pretty much flawless camo color / technique with the expoxy so we have less need to spend an overwhelming amount of time to actually get a problem bolt entirely out of a hole.

 

For basalt, the best approach to doing an epoxy patch of any size (and I've done this regularly on up to 3" x 3" patches) is to:

 

Get yourself a fine, short densely bristled brass brush about 2 inches square and tape it around the circumference of the bristles to keep them from splaying out under pressure (you can see ours pre-taping in the lower left hand corner in the gear photo above)

 

Clean the patch area well of loose debris - but don't over do it

 

Mix and smear epoxy into the area / shape of the patch paying particular attention to getting it worked into all the crevices; on the edges along the perimeter of the patch use an outward smearing stroke; for all this just use your thumb and press really, really hard

 

Place the brass brush over the patch and really lean directly in to it hard and repeatedly picking it up and placing it back down between presses; really work the edges especially

 

Do a final, lighter cosmetic set of presses which will result in the surface of the patch being covered with a carpet of clean bristle holes

 

Take the butt of your palm and tamp the patch to take the "crispness" out of the bristle holes so that it matches the gas bubble texture of the surrounding rock

 

This will result in a nearly invisible patch ideally suited to being quickly colonized by a variety micro-flora. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes for them to completely blend it into the surrounding terrain. Some variation on this theme would definitely work for sandstone and I suspect some surface texture implement could be found that would work well for granite - maybe one of those finely coiled SS commercial pot scrubbers...

 

And here is a variety of links people have posted:

 

Colored epoxy sticks

 

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=113

 

Color mixing chart

 

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/mhk_cds/color_chart/Epoxy%20Sticks.pdf

 

 

Photos

 

http://www.safercliffs.org/code/photos.html

 

 

 

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 20, 2006, 06:58pm PST

Author:

WBraun

 

climber

From: Double posts? What are you up to? Me don't get it.

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 10:23am PST

Author:

k-man

 

Gym climber

From: SCruz "We're [read 'I'm'] trying to stay more technical, less spray here."

 

then

 

"And it's BECAUSE these bolts appear fairly robust, that I wonder why they needed to be replaced - retrobolted at all? .. .. .."

 

Yeah, real technical.

 

Dude, this is BS. You deleted your original post and various contributions because you didn't like the direction it was going? Poor taste.

 

[Edit] If you want to create the "Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference," it might have been better to let the thread run its course, then when it was exhausted you could have put together the reference and posted that. But deleting other's posts and reposting a summary, then expecting a continuation of thought;i it's kinda draconian.

:- k

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 10:34am PST

Author:

hobo

 

Trad climber

From: Well, whatever. I guess this isnt the place for such a thing. I was just trying to gather some useful info and keep it organized. My personal opinion had nothing to do with it, the only posts I removed were ones that had nothing to do with rebolting.

 

 

 

Alex

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 10:38am PST

Author:

k-man

 

Gym climber

From: SCruz I think it's cool that you're making the effort to gather some solid rebolting information--where is there a better place to do it. But first gather all the info, then make the reference. You'll get more info that way (at least that's my 2c).

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 11:45am PST

Author:

hobo

 

Trad climber

From: Kman, that makes sense, i think your probably right.

 

Anyway, to everyone who has provided info so far, i think it is fairly useful, thank you. The ASCA link is also very informative, as well as posted information. So, if anyone has more, go for it. If we get a plethora of information here, i will be happy to organize it in some sort of document and post it. Any and everything is appreciated.

 

Thanks all,

 

Alex

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 12:04pm PST

Author:

Karl Baba

 

Trad climber

From: Yosemite, Ca It was a fine effort Alex. It would still be worthwhile to compile the info as it is posted and edit your initial post on the this thread to contain it. Then whatever off-topic stuff folks post below won't matter

 

peace

 

 

Karl

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 12:15pm PST

Author:

hobo

 

Trad climber

From: I included basically everything from the initial post. The posts I deleted were ones like, oh say, the last couple of posts here. Sorry to anyone if it seems like i am trying manipulate the original post or anything. I really think all remotely relevant info is above. As far as this one goes, ill just let it go, then compile the the info and repost something organized. This one wont be deleted. We'll see where it goes...

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 12:32pm PST

Author:

Karl Baba

 

Trad climber

From: Yosemite, Ca The only thing I'm thinking is that Minerals has compiled a lot of good info to post when he resurfaces. I sent him a link to the old post but he's a smart guy and will probably figure it out

 

Just kidding!!

 

Ok, not kidding. Post up man

 

Karl

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 21, 2006, 09:24pm PST

Author:

bhilden

 

Trad climber

From: Mountain View, CA One thing that I didn't see in this discussion is that there is an easy way to remove the lead sleeve left behind in the hole from a Star Dryvin.

 

You can use a lag bolt of the same diameter as the hole and about 1" longer than the hole depth. Thread the lag bolt into the hole using a wrench until the bolt bottoms out in the end of the hole. Next, use a crowbar, funkness device, tuning fork to remove the lag bolt from the hole.

 

If all goes well, the threads of the lag bolt will have cut themselves into the lead and when you remove the bolt, the lead sleeve will come out, intact, with it.

 

Thanks to Clint Cummins for this tip. It really works!

 

Bruce

 

Re: Official Re-Bolting/Route Restoration Reference Jan 22, 2006, 12:41am PST

Author:

Darnell

 

Big Wall climber

From: Chicago Nice, thanx bhilden.

[billcoe]

Damn those are long threads!

[high_on_rock]

You might also want to coordinate with the guy who is going to redrill and rebolt the route after you finish, and discuss what type of bolts to use on the second and third drillings to make it easier and cheaper for the both of you. Could be easier to merely arm wrestle to see which of you gets to impose their will over the other rather than continually drilling and filling holes in a nice rock. Communication before action?

[RuMR]

TIM!

 

WTF dude? You go over there and try to put NA values in place? You'd have interesting discussions on the issue on this side of the pond...

 

Let sleeping dogs lie...better yet, just climb them the way they are and place pro instead of clipping the bolts...

 

You are hardly a "local" there...

[kevbone]

I know I'm going to get tons of shit for this here in Spain, but there are more than several climbs, bolted cracks, that I'm going to "restore" here in the next year. The thing is that I've never drilled a bolt and never pulled a bolt. Before I do anything I would like some pointers on how to pull a bolt without damaging the rock too much and then what is the best way patch up the hole? Keep in mind, I don't want this to be the beginning of a huge bolting debate, just the 1,2,3's of doing some good work.

 

Holy shit, you have opened a can of worms... first things first. Have you contacted the FA? If not do so...please give them the respect first and foremost (even if you don’t agree with what they did). Try to get them to buy into the idea and have them take the bolts out themselves. Of course we both know this won’t happen. But at least you can document your attempt.

 

Second ask yourself…”is it really worth the effort”. Pulling bolts/adding bolts is a lot of work hanging in a harness. Rigging lines, jugging. Its work man. Are you ready?

 

[RuMR]

not to mention the amount of grief you will get for being a "cowboy american" in spain for this...

 

what will you gain? A sense of smugness? This is not index and squabbling between a small group of "locals"...

 

why don't you just enjoy your good fortune and the blessed life that you are leading???

[TimL]

Not stuffing anything down anyones throat, neither do I want to. Nor am I lecturing anybody. Its just something that is going to happen. I'm not part of any faction who is lecturing one way or the other. I know that there are people here who have been restoring climbs, but I don't know them.

 

At this point there are just two climbs that I'm going to restore when I get the time. One is a blatently bolted finger crack that was an aid climb, then someone bolted it and freed it at around 11d/12a with manufactured pockets in a blank wall after the top of the crack so the climb could be extended a meter. I've already climbed this route on gear and its totaly easy to free on gear and everything is bomber. I'm going to patch the bolt holes then patch the manufactured pockets then move the shitty anchor down to the end of the crack where the logical ending should be. Second route is just a route with old dowl like bolts. This is a corner that goes on gear easily.

 

The place is called Pedriza and its all granite. The place is beautiful, but many routes are a mess. People really havn't taken care of their resources there. I've seen people come and go and do whatever they please. Its actually kinda sickening. I'm pretty laid back, but when I see these routes in particular, it makes me sick. I'm not going to spray about anything, but I won't deny it either. You can't put North American reasoning/logic to this issue because ethics are just different here. People really just do whatever they want from what I've seen.

Edited December 22, 2006 by TimL

[pope]

Beers to you. What's right is right, regardless of anybody's nationality or local traditions. Anybody here in Washington who can't afford a rack of gear (but mysteriously you can afford an impact drill)...you should borrow my rack before you drill bolts next to a crack. I'll even teach you how to place the gear.

[RuMR]

ok then, if you aren't gonna "spray" about it, i'd ask a moderator to remove this thread completely and just google stuff up...

[kevbone]

ok then, if you aren't gonna "spray" about it, i'd ask a moderator to remove this thread completely and just google stuff up...

 

I think it would be more fun to move this thread to Spray, then we can have some fun with our wanabe spaniard.

[Off_White]

Kev, just because you're unfamiliar with Tim from your very short and recent residence here doesn't mean that he's a johnny-come-lately wannabe. Be carful, I'd guess more of the folks here would jump on you instead of on your bandwagon.

[bwrts]

Oh rudy...dont worry the spanish will not care, but I do agree that Tim should just leave it be and climb the crack with gear, take pictures and then post them in local spain sites, whatever...to mock the frenchie behavior.

Way more of a statement.

Also, rename the routes...claim first ascent, etc.

[kevbone]

Kev, just because you're unfamiliar with Tim from your very short and recent residence here doesn't mean that he's a johnny-come-lately wannabe. Be carful, I'd guess more of the folks here would jump on you instead of on your bandwagon.

 

Sorry, wasnt trying to be an ass. Just following Ru's start.

[TimL]

U know, maybe I jumped the gun. I'm going to sit on it a bit and ask a couple old school locals. The climbers of the 80's, which here is when alot of hard routes were developed. I'm not really concerned either with what people think, neither am I going to import my ethics. Nationalities aside, we are all climbers and ywe have to take care of our resources.

 

The thing I see here is that it doesn't matter that much what happens, be it good or bad. Like most places, people are all bark and no bite. Some people might get a little hot, but nothing is going to happen. No bolt wars, arguments..nothing. At least thats what I see being an outsider. Chipping, grid bolting, bolting on holds, glueing holds. The feeling here is that if a couple chipped or manufactured holds will make a route go, then so be it. Or if you have to chip a meter or two to get to the climb, or add hold, then so be it. The thing is there are some crazy bold climbs, the there are the sport bolted routes next to perfect cracks. But for now, I'm going to leave it. I'll take some pictures when I get a chance.

[TimL]

U know, maybe I jumped the gun. I'm going to sit on it a bit and ask a couple old school locals. The climbers of the 80's, which here is when alot of hard routes were developed. I'm not really concerned either with what people think, neither am I going to import my ethics. Nationalities aside, we are all climbers and ywe have to take care of our resources.

 

The thing I see here is that it doesn't matter that much what happens, be it good or bad. Like most places, people are all bark and no bite. Some people might get a little hot, but nothing is going to happen. No bolt wars, arguments..nothing. At least thats what I see being an outsider. Chipping, grid bolting, bolting on holds, glueing holds. The feeling here is that if a couple chipped or manufactured holds will make a route go, then so be it. Or if you have to chip a meter or two to get to the climb, or add holds, then so be it. The thing is there are some crazy bold climbs, the there are the sport bolted routes next to perfect cracks. But for now, I'm going to leave it. I'll take some pictures when I get a chance.

Edited December 22, 2006 by TimL

[hawkeye69]

as long as you are tryin to instill some merican values in those poor guys you might wanna think about gettin them to do this:

raising the min. drinkin age,

get them to attack contries on false pretenses,

teach them to spray,

teach them english for gawdsakes!

[billcoe]

Good call TimL on that change of direction. Best find out what locals are really doing and help out as much as possible.

 

And I almost want to second that idea about teaching them the superior American way. These pussies backed out of the coalition of the willing when we attacked Iraq, and look where it got them! They can't even afford to waste fuel commuting with big SUV's in the superior American way.

 

Now they have bolted crack routes springing up everywhere and will have to invade Morroco or who knows what the hell else to fix the issue. Bet they wind up asking for our help to bail them out....sigh.just like those pussies the French in both WW1, AND WW2...sigh.. only to be stabbed in the back again:......... treacherous Euros. And now it's almost getting to expensive too go over there and drink the wine and the Cognac and eat the cheese...or in those awesome Parisian eateries.....sigh...

 

 

 

[RuMR]

Kev, just because you're unfamiliar with Tim from your very short and recent residence here doesn't mean that he's a johnny-come-lately wannabe. Be carful, I'd guess more of the folks here would jump on you instead of on your bandwagon.

 

Sorry, wasnt trying to be an ass. Just following Ru's start.

 

my start? WTF are you talking about? I've known Tim for a long time...I was only making my thoughts known, not trying to "spray" on it...hence, i thought it should probably be removed (the thread, not the bolt)...

 

Tim, if you remove the bolts, i'd do it discretely and not talk about it too much...just pull 'em, fill in the pockets and press on...

[Doug T]

Hi Tim,

 

First off, thanks for the help on Even Steven on your last visit. I got it the next time I went up there.

 

My vote is to leave it as is. Nature will take care of the bolt eventually. In about 15-20 years it'll be rusting enough that you can chop it for "Safety Sake".

 

I think that your example of climbing with style, ignoring bolts near cracks, will probably have more long term positive effect on the local view of their rock resources.

 

That's my view... Of course my view might be different if I were more exposed to Spanish climbing. Perhaps I could crash at your flat in Madrid and you could tour me through some nice moderates cuando la esposa y tu no estan ensenando el Engles a los Castellanos.

 

Doug Taylor

[Raindawg]

Beers to you. What's right is right, regardless of anybody's nationality or local traditions. Anybody here in Washington who can't afford a rack of gear (but mysteriously you can afford an impact drill)...you should borrow my rack before you drill bolts next to a crack. I'll even teach you how to place the gear.

 

Right on, Tim. Right on, pope.

And a big round of applause for billcoe who has posted the information a growing number of folks are seeking: not only how to chop/"remove", but very importantly, how to RESTORE. This info. needs to be made readily accessible, and not just as an ephemeral topic that will vanish into the archives with the rest.

 

ok then, if you aren't gonna "spray" about it, i'd ask a moderator to remove this thread completely and just google stuff up...

 

This subject ain't going away, even if it disappears from here.

In fact, I hope it picks up some real momentum in 2007!