Traditional Workouts=Ice Climbing Strength?

[dbconlin]

I was doing a couple sets of pullups once a day, almost every day, for a week, after an extended period 'on the couch'. Then, I went for a mountain bike ride. On the drive to the TH, I noticed some soreness/twinging in my shoulder just from steering the car. I went anyway and during the course of my ride (difficult climbing, occasional falling and bracing off my arms) my arm became very very sore. I cut the ride short, but the downhill ride back to the car was very unpleasant. The next day, I could not lift my arm out in front or to the side above shoulder level without pain. I went the doctor, he injected me with cortizone and told me I must maintain range of motion. He referred me to physical therapy. The PT gave me some excersizes that mostly involved moving my arm through range of motion in different directons and some strengthening using resistance bands.

 

So, it kind of started slowly, but was a suddenly noticable thing when I couldn't lift my arm. I don't know what would have happened if I had never went for that bike ride.

[fern]

what makes you think it was the pullups and not the bike ride that did it?

 

there's been lots of good info in the fitness forum on shoulder problems, numbness, compartment syndrome. Bike riding postures exacerbating shoulder problems related to tight pectorals. Maybe Mike Layton will jump in with better details than I can.

 

'Maintaining' range of motion isn't going to help much in the long term if your current range of motion sucks.

 

In my experience one of the best exercises I have found that combines a quality pec/chest/anterior shoulder stretch with a posterior shoulder/lats/biceps etc. 'resistance' movement is a gymnastic 'kipping' pullup.

[carolyn]

technique is the efficient application of the strength you have. more strength = more opportunity for technique.

 

I've only glanced at responses, so I may not be addressing the original topic to the tee.

 

I agree with fern on this.

 

I do think there is a fine balance that has to be made.

Pullups alone will not make you a great ice climber.

neither will technique.

 

I watch a friend who is SUPER strong, yet he often struggles on anything more than a 3. I see how he climbs, and if ONLY he would allow himself to be open to different techniques, he would be a monster! I am a weakling compared to him. The amount of pullups I can do - ha! Im not saying I am "better" than him. However, the technique I have learned over the years (and need to keep learning) has allowed me to bank on my strengths , which I implied earlier are not pull ups. Recognizing and using MY strengths allows me to conserve energy, thus climb longer or harder.

 

Strength in ice climbing isnt just about pullups,either. Core, grip, and calves are vital. Work on a rounded training involving all the necessary muscles and technique is what will help you see an improvement.

 

(now, to take my own advice )

 

 

[carolyn]

well lookie there!

Hiya fern!

[dbconlin]

what makes you think it was the pullups and not the bike ride that did it?

 

Well, my shoulder was sore before the ride, but yes it was probably the combination. My PTist acknowledged the problem with riding posture, but seemed to indicate that the driving force was probably excessive strain due to pullups.

 

My shoulder has pretty much fully recovered by following the PTs advice.

[layton]

Seems like you narrowly avoided the dreaded FROZEN SHOULDER!

[scottgg]

Good info, thanks ya'll!

Have you ever been filled with envy after hearing about some local climbers succeeding on a particularly challenging route, be it a waterfall, or a mountain? I know I have, and inevitably I begin to ponder the preparations that they made, and my chances of success on a similar route. When it comes to groping a wintry summit, technical skillz and luck may play even bigger roles than fitness, but I wonder how successful winter climbers measure up on a fitness scale…. It would be cool to see a section in certain trip reports that details how the climbers trained for their route, and how many (insert favorite exercise here) they could do in (insert absurdly fast time here).

[tthirloway]

Good stuff here. But, what exactly is a 'kipping' pullup?

[sexual_chocolate]

It seems to me that training one-arm lock-offs would be really helpful for hard ice climbing. i know one m11 climber who reportedly does lots of these.

 

i think training low reps (5 and less) and tons o' sets with a weight that only allows that many is the quickest way to realizing strength gains (and injuries if you aren't careful and build up to it for a few weeks).

 

and with will gadd's story, yeah he might have needed to learn to move, but his ceiling would have been lower if he didn't have the strength he had. i think more strength ALWAYS gives one more potential (with other factors remaining the same ie weight size etc).

[fern]

Good stuff here. But, what exactly is a 'kipping' pullup?

 

it's a family activity

kipping tutorial

so many fun ways to do pullups

[Choada_Boy]

Fern:

 

What is the advantage of a "kipping" PU vs your standard ROM PU? Seems like you can get more reps, but I'm sure that's not the goal.

[fern]

1) the ROM in the shoulder of a kipping pullup is actually greater than a static pullup, due to the extension of the shoulder as you swing forward.

 

2) it requires more coordination, and involves more muscles to be activated. Neurologically it is more challenging.

 

3) you can do more reps in less time = more power output. Which essentially means you can get a "cardio" workout from an upper-body dominated movement pattern. Doing high rep sets of kipping pu's is akin to sprinting.

 

4) at the bottom of the movement, due to the swinging motion, the force on your hands is actually slightly more than body-weight, so it trains your grip more than a static pullup.

 

it's not a replacement for static pullups, it's a different exercise.

 

[nordicpunk]

yes- do lots of different exercises. however, I think the standard pull-up is the best one and should be an integral part of your training . The reason- 95% of the time you are doing a simple pull-up motion to move up the ice (unless you're doing hard mixed, then core strength and lock offs could help). increasing the range of motion in your exercises actually decreases the force of any one motion. and until you get to WI5-6 that motion is a pull-up (no swinging your body around on the way up! haha). I would definately stay away from those kips if you have shoulder problems (and maybe even if you don't). I don't know who invented these but it is just asking for rotator cuff trouble. keep your pull-ups a controlled motion.

Also -thought the bit on training for certain expeditions was very interesting. would love to see more on that in TR's as well. the best training is to change your muscle type (as much as you can) to match the climb. Long climb? -drop that fast twitch, too inefficient. Want to be a stud at the crags? -work on the power.

[BillA]

The reason- 95% of the time you are doing a simple pull-up motion to move up the ice

 

No muscle, in real life, works in isolation. The reason kipping pullups are preferred in crossfit are because they engage a variety of muscle groups to get the work done. There's a good lengthy discussion on kipping pullups here: http://www.crossfit.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=22&post=34589

 

Checkout http://www.gymjones.com/video.php# and scroll down to the nothing but pullups video. Watch Jim Howe bust out 65 pullups. His kip gets more pronounced as the reps go up.

 

Also, without a good kip it would be really difficult to do a muscle-up, which is a pretty freaking awesome upper body workout.

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

ech those aren't pull-ups, and there's no way they'll work climbing specific strength as well as standard pull-ups or better yet, type-writers. yeah they'll work your endurance and get your max's high, but how often in climbing do you get to swing your body to initiate a move?

 

save your time and do type-writers and one arms and lock-offs, and high rep standard legit pull-ups for endurance.

[BillA]

You're right, WTF does MFT know anyway?

[sexual_chocolate]

he knows how to suffer.