creatine

[Sol]

anyone on this board use creatine. been lifting weights lately, the jockos in the gym keep telling me how much stronger i'll be if i suck down some creatine. i'm not really into supplements at all, but i know Alex Lowe used and recommended it. any thoughts, pros, cons?

[catbirdseat]

Eric Horst suggested in one of his training guides that creatine would add more bulk than strength. I don't think it's use is real common among climbers. I have a friend who says he uses it occasionally to speed recovery and reduce soreness after particularly hard workouts. I have not used it myself.

 

The link below appears to support this.

 

Creatine for Climbers

 

Here's another link.

 

It would seem that boulderers would stand to gain the most from creatine because it is a very short duration activity.

Edited November 9, 2006 by catbirdseat

[John Frieh]

I cycled it with a few other supplements throughout my HS years with excellent results... I haven't used it (at least in mass quantities) since then but being able to bench 300 doesn't do shit for rock climbing

 

I think the best first question is why are you lifting weights? What are you hoping to gain from it? Be specific... shoot me an email if you don't want to deal with the anticipated spray

[Sol]

thanks for the great links CBS, exactly what i was looking for.

 

John i started lifting weights about a year and a half ago to stave off imbalance issues: elbow tendonitis, rotator cuff pain, lower back pain. it worked great and i haven't had to deal with any of those issues since (knock on wood). I started rounding out my weight lifting workouts via beta from Twight's book, the mountaineers training book, and eric horst's book. overall it has improved my climbing immensely, allowing me to break out of that 5.10+ plateau which i had been stuck at for a while. Now i try to hit the weights 3X a week. 2 days spent on High intensity power endurance (max out between 8-12 reps, 1 min between sets, 3 sets), and 1 day on explosive power (max out 3-6 reps, 3 min between sets, 2 sets). if y'all have any beta about lifting i'm all ears. from reading the articles on creatine, i don't think i'm going to get much into it, possibility of too much bulk, but i may try to see how it works for recovery.

[dmuja]

I think the best first question is why are you lifting weights? What are you hoping to gain from it? Be specific...

 

Helo Mr JF.

 

unfortunate anticipated spray beginning..

 

Are you hinting that weight lifting has no place in climbing?

 

Curious.

 

PS - supps always come with a physical price I think.

 

 

 

Mujas 3 ingredient recipe for better climbin

 

1. thin (remove donut - run don't walk)

2. strong (aka hit the weights)

3. skilled (aka do the moves)

 

The order depends on the individual but all are essential for climbing at your personal best dont you think?

[Mr_Phil]

Are you hinting that weight lifting has no place in climbing?

 

Here's what Will Gadd has to say on the topic:

 

Climbing Movement Theory

 

The Big Concept: Climbing is a movement sport, not a strength sport. The best climbers are good at climbing; strength matters far less than the combination of the climber’s motion skills, attitude and mind. The best way to become a better climber is develop better movement; strength will develop specifically for climbing movement as fast as it is needed. Most climbs are combinations of movements; the better the climber is at those movements, the better he or she will climb the route. Strength is not even secondary, it’s about last on the list of needed skills. My goal is to teach the MOVES outlined below as best I can to students.

 

Example: In 1992 I became convinced that good climbers were strong climbers, hence I needed to be strong. After spending months in the weight room I could do a one-arm pull up with 25 pounds in the other hand and many other stunts that definitely made me very strong. My climbing improved perhaps a letter grade or two, which was positive. I then went to France, where I won several pull-up contests, often by miles. Some of these climbers were pathetic, barely able to do ten pull-ups, and these were the best in the world! Then I noticed that I was getting my ass kicked in the competitions, finishing low in the field despite being stronger than most anyone there. At the crags the French were climbing much harder routes onsight than I was capable of climbing with a lot of falls. Something was not right. One night in a bar a top euro climber was expounding on why the French were so good: "We have the best rock in the world. We climb more than anyone else. And we have the best wine." In one sentence he restructured my entire world view of climbing: To become a better climber you simply must climb more. A week later I watched Francois LeGrande onsight a route harder than anything I had ever climbed. Francois had never touched a weight, but god could he move. I resolved to learn how to move. After six months of doing nothing but climbing and studying climbing movement, I onsighted a route harder than anything I’d ever redpointed. So forget weights, strength, supplements, learn how to move and your body will develop the strength necessary for the movements.

[dmuja]

Its funny, is that the same Will Gadd that has a weight lifting routeen in the back of one of his books? (fe 2003)

 

I think there are too many variables here to make blanket statements that apply to all climbers at all times. WG is comparing himself to other climbers, I was comparing myself (ones self) to my self.

 

When I look at C Sharma for example I see a pretty strong guy for his weight (were talking strength to weight ratio here) with superior technique. Some people are naturally strong, some naturally thin, and some have superior body mechanics ala Michael Jordon. But I think for the average weekend type of climber a combination of good strength to weight ratio AND skill is the best way to go. JMO

 

Personally I cant climb as much as some because my 45 year old joints get trashed with too much climbing. This forces me to rely on technique more and more and thats good - just not the whole story I think. Try hooking a 1 finger pocket under a roof and tell me strength has nothing to do with it. Now send a seris of those moves and tell me that strength and muscle endurance (depending how fat or skinny you are) has nothing to do with climbing?

 

It depends on the individual and their climbing goals no doubt, I still say that there is no one that couldn't benifit from some strength training though..

[Weekend_Climberz]

I think it was Tony Yaniro who said, "If you can't pull a single hard move, you have nothing to endure." Though it was in response to endurance training, pulling that hard move requires strength no matter how you say it. It just finding the right balance, aka Strength to Weight ration. Also, make sure you give yourself plenty of time to recover and after several consecutive months of training, take a month or so off and chill. When you get back to the gym, your body will be more prepared to take it up another level rather than plateauing [sic?].

[Winter]

I personally don't buy this whole "lifting isn't useful for climbing" line of reasoning. I can maybe see it if all you want to do is push the grades on a sport route. But for those of us that are aging, have ever had injuries or are generally interested in overall fitness and alpine climbing, then I believe resistance training has a huge role to play in conditioning for a wide range of reasons. That said, lifting and bulking up are two very different things.

[powdrx]

I weight trained for a few years to be big and strong. I used Creatine quite a bit wtih good results to my end. You will gain quite a bit of water weight, which will be lost after you stop supplementing. But I don't know that this will be the big key in improving your climbing. Creatine is great for building muscle mass and helping recover for the workouts, but I would focus on a form of recovery shake/supplement like whey protein and glutamine for after your weight or climbing workouts.

I would also say that weights can be valualbe in progession on climbing. If everything is strong, you have more balance in pulling harder moves or enduring longer cruxes. I echo the "find the balance" mantra in this thread.

Now

[whirlwind]

i didn't check the links so this may be old news but, my friend used creatine for a long period of time, end results yeah he got stonger, got alot bulkier, and also lost endurance (all he did was lift and ride his bike) smelled really bad, that stuff gives you some nasty gas, i've herd from a few people that all it does is allow your cells to hold more water, ie get bulky, maybe thats why people recover faster, fast recovery means you can do more work in a short time. personaly i wouldn't use it but it may have some benifits for muscle recovery after a big work out of competion, but im not a sport doc and am just comenting on what i've seen

[Valhalla]

There are plenty of scientific studies out there (both industry and academic) that demonstrate creatine's effectiveness for a variety of sports. Creatine if taken properly with a proper diet volumizes cells and provides a compound that the body normally requires for muscle maintenance, growth, and energy (remember the ATP electron cascade from high school bio?...I don't either), but just in major doses. The advantages from creatine is a noticeable increase in muscle volume, power/endurance, and recovery (and this will lead to bigger muscles). You will lose some water volume when you stop taking it.

 

I started taking it again after my backsurgery when I returned to the gym. Within a couple of weeks I noticed a marked increase in how many reps I could do and most importantly to climbing, an increased ability to push out a couple more. In the gym this translated in getting that great pump. I find that I also have a little more explosive power. I think this is the area in which there are conflicting studies. Too much muscle can certainly be a hinderance, and I agree that the best training for climbing is climbing, but strength training and maintaining/adding more fast muscle fibers (lifting, jumping, sprinting) and slow (endurance) can only pay off in the future.

 

 

[JayB]

Just got a kilo today. Couple that with the in-home Olympic set-up and the absence of anything better to do during a wet and warm East Coast winter and its...

 

VNQ1JS1V6WA

[baja]

Hello I saw your post and thought I would throw in my two cents.

 

#1 I am a climber wanna-be, I live in Texas so my climbs have mostly been walk ups in Colorado and would love to do what you guys do on a weekend. My hat is off to you. That being said I do however have degrees in Kinesiology and I am a IORNMAN competitor as well as a Cat 1 road cyclist and expert mountain bike racer.

So you can rest assured what I am going to say not only comes from experience in the lab but also in the field.

 

Does Creatine work?

Yes it does it works by increasing the bodies naturally ATP-PC cycle which is at the cellular or Mitochondria level. This is the cycle which gives muscles the ability to do anaerobic work. It is a process that naturally occurs when a muscle tissue fires a response to stimuli. It will increase both strength and size of the muscle based on the theory of recruitment. Would being stronger help climbing? Yes without question but at what cost and here is the Con side of the equation.

 

Creatine also has an extreme dehydration effect on the cell and the cellular composition. You have to stay extremely hydrated if you’re using it or you will cramp up in the worst way. I have had terrible cramps first hand and have witnessed it many times in races. I know that dehydration can cause many problems with altitude and frost bite and would not think that the minor advantages of using it within a short time frame of an expedition would be worth the risk.

 

Now that being said if you were to use the product for training and then cycle off of it before a climb I would think that could be done effectively. But my bottom line would be to eat right get lots of sleep drink plenty of fluids and go like hell in your workouts.

 

I hope this is helpful to you.