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korrigan

Bolt Nazis

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Is that you?

 

no, i got the next pitch which was 50m 10a no pro. thumbs_up.gif

 

Stroke, stroke, stroke. thumbs_up.gif

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Back in the mid-70's climbing on a set of stoppers and a set of hexs you had to conserve your pro and not every crack was good for passive gear, we considered a 30 footer a completely ordinary and average fall. Anything 40+ we thought of as getting long with my partner taking a 110 footer in Eldo as his max. My max was more like a 70footer. But we both took a few falls every year in the 30-60 foot range and considered 20-30 foot falls simply the normal cost of the business of pushing your limits.

 

The skills involved with successfully running it out can be as much or more about brains than balls. My old partner and I are good examples of those different approaches - he did rings in college, possesses an endless well of self-confidence, never liked screwing around with pro much, and has regularly free soloed 5.11s for over thirty years - he just goes and doesn't think much about it. I, on the otherhand, aren't as strong, don't free solo much, and tend to overthink everything. But I actively do risk management every step of the way and when I think I have a risk under control I climb on. But I've worked hard at developing my craft with gear and have always free climbed above crack'n ups, hooks, microstoppers, small ball nuts, and using steeply pre-sliced screamers to keep the odds in my favor. That doesn't mean I regularly entertain death falls, but I don't hesitate to run it out above what others sometimes consider marginal pro. But I only do so because I've fallen on all of it many times in the past and know the limits of what it will likely sustain.

 

Simply slapping in bolts on mixed routes before developing advanced trad skills is pretty weak to me. I am far more inclined to respect a decision to bolt under such circumstances when they are made by someone who took the time to develop those advanced skills and understands the limits of what can and cannot be reasonably accomplished with gear. As far as bolting just to make a climb "safe" - complete bullsh#t. Climbs, regardless of how runout they are, don't hurt people - people with bad judgment hurt themselves.

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Is that you?

 

no, i got the next pitch which was 50m 10a no pro. thumbs_up.gif

 

Stroke, stroke, stroke. thumbs_up.gif

 

why don't you describe the biggest runout you've ever taken and at what grade then homey? dick measuring is no good when all your opponent can do is "the tuck" HCL.gif

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Having done Orbit last weekend which could IMO use a couple a new bolts or at least one to replace what is there and seeing the acres of climbable ground and rarely climbed ground going to lichenous waste I get's to tinkin, or is it tinkling?

 

If it weren't for the bolt nazis and the inevitability of chopping by said anita briants of the rock SCW could have a lot of good climbing.

 

Take the 'lost' variation on Orbit. Having not gone that way I can only assume the reason people don't succeed on it if it's only 10a is because of dirt and a lack of bolts, the two of which go hand in hand in warshinton if ya'll haven't noticed.

 

Or what about the upper section of things like remorse or completely unclimbed ground.

 

but the fact remains that those climbs or variations on climbs aren't done. And the fact remains that washington has very little sizable cragging to be done and SCW is one of the few offerings of such a thing.

 

Would the world really come to an end if there were some bolts up there so that the rest of us could climb?

 

Me I'm gettin my Bosch out and headin for SCW now. Too bad ya'll are workin or you could stop me.

 

I am not sure what you are trying to start here but just to clear a few things up....

Orbit had bolts put in due to era of pitons and bolts....lack of "clean" protection.

Lost Planet Airmen gets done more than you like to imagine climbing it yourself.

Remorse gets done as with the full route of RPM and even northern dihedral (Great dirt route).

YOu are right they are dirty and loose and blah but Because people only do the "classics" they have become so....

If you think Snow tick crag is sizeable, then you need to hike some more.

Yes, the world will end, but no not if you go add bolts. However, this is a cop out and really detracts from what I hope you are hinting towards...

Besides if you go up there with a Bosch you will have to answer to the government as Snow Tick is in the Wilderness...

 

Perhaps you need to think before you type for all of us to read and critisize your retorical bull.

OTher than that have a nice day and keep dreaming....

bigdrink.gif

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But I've worked hard at developing my craft with gear and have always free climbed above crack'n ups, hooks, microstoppers, small ball nuts, and using steeply pre-sliced screamers to keep the odds in my favor.

 

Hardman in the house wazzup.gif

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. my partner taking a 110 footer in Eldo as his max.

 

I bet you caught him on a hip belay right? yelrotflmao.gif

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. my partner taking a 110 footer in Eldo as his max.

 

I bet you caught him on a hip belay right? yelrotflmao.gif

 

No, his girlfriend did, at a hanging belay...

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why don't you describe the biggest runout you've ever taken and at what grade then homey?

 

Why would I do that? So you can attack me and make fun of me?

 

Stroke, stroke, stroke

feel better?

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>>part of the argument comes down to this: for bolted or partly-bolted pitches, does the first ascensionist have any kinda moral/social/nice-guy responsibility to bolt it safely and at good stances? Or, because they probably eyed/cleaned/equipped the route themself, should they just put in bolts exactly where (and not where) they want to, with thought only given to enabling their FA of the climb.<<

 

All responsibility for a climb is taken by the party who climbs it. If the FA team wants to put a bolt every 80 feet on protectionless slab, then great! Subsequent parties can then enjoy a simmilar climbing experience. It has always been the responsibility of any subsequent parties to make the best effort to contact the FA team to reccomend/ volunteer to add bolts (i.e. Snake Dike in Yosemite Valley, CA).

 

Courtesy, gentlebeings, courtesy.

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There you go. Snake dike is a good example. I have climbed this route. Since it is easy. I would love to see a couple of bolts go in strategic places. I don’t think it would take away from the experience.

There you go spotter boy. 100 foot run outs, at least 4 of them.

Oh yeah, it’s only 5.6 in the run outs! I guess I am not as cool as you!

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Great! Thanks for volunteering to add a bolt or two on Snake Dike. I believe you can contact the FA folks via the Yosemite climbing commitee. Rem: hand drilling only in the valley.

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Kevbone,

 

So what is the deal with you and this runout business? You've said it's about not putting your fun at jeopardy but I have to say on the surface that sounds more like a downstream benefit of a blanket decision not to not do runouts, as opposed to saying what it is about doing them that drove such a decision. I've alternately both done and backed down from three decades of runouts for various reasons but have never had a personal blanket "policy" around them so am curious.

 

If your FA's were trad climbs I'd say it was a completely personal decision and no one else's business; but when you're putting up routes with fixed pro then I think it does start to have some bearing on other people relative to the decisions you are embedding in stone for everyone. That's not to say that I think routes should necessarily have FA's on them, but when one presents itself on a line and the risks are otherwise manageable, but I see a bolt square in the middle of it, then I usually end up thinking the FA didn't really have what it took to realize the true potential the line offered up to them.

 

This really gets into the whole issue of how one balances "community service" (aka pride / "wanting others to do your route") versus realizing the full potential of a route. Any route can be bolted down so the masses can safely be entertained on it, but what judgment, control, and personal responsibility skills are they developing in the process? I understand those skills are largely irrelavant if you consider climbing mere entertainment. However, a majority of climbers holding such a view, in and of itself for me, is as sad a turn of events in climbing as I can image, but that's just one old man's opinion.

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i think kev is not opposed to running it out well under his onsight grade...that is a fine attitude...

 

fwiw, i think that a first ascensionist who has spent the time to find, clean and prep a route has the dibs on the style...if he wants to go ground up and take what he can get, that's fine and if he wants a rap bolt every 2 feet that's fine too...and he'd better be prepared for the critique he's gonna get which ever way he chooses...

 

also, i think that areas have styles associated with them and generally, its not a good idea to go in and "change" the style of the area...

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Kevbone,

 

So what is the deal with you and this runout business?

 

JH, until you actually climb a route I put up. Shut up! I protected them how I saw fit. I get raving reviews on my bolting job. Anyone could climb anyone of my routes and run it out and make it R or X. That was not the point. The point was to put up climbs so I could climb them. I could give a fuck about anyone else. This is why some Sporto’s show up and complain about the runout. My response is. “Dude, it takes gear”, that’s why I did not place a bolt. If you like to run it out, go for it. No one is stopping you. But please to not comment or complain to me about my style!

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Kevin,

 

Whoa dude, I thought you were complaining about folks not wanting to engage you in legitimate discussion? I did not "comment or complain to me about my style!" I was simply picking up on one of your earlier are comments you made about your not doing runouts. I'm simply curious as to what that's about. And in no way am I "attacking" you or your routes; I was making a general statement about all folks doing FA's with fixed protection and the intersection between their views on runouts and the application of fixed pro.

 

I'm not saying you as an FA shouldn't put them up how you call them; but saying folks might think you both did a fine job on one and didn't really "get" the line on another. We all have to accept that reality when we choose to employ fixed pro on an FA. Again, I wasn't commenting on your specific routes or style per se - which I haven't climbed as you rightly point out - so much as asking about your earlier comments relative to runouts. It was actually an attempt at real conversation.

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Kevin,

 

Whoa dude, I thought you were complaining about folks not wanting to engage you in legitimate discussion? I did not "comment or complain to me about my style!" I was simply picking up on one of your earlier are comments you made about your not doing runouts. I'm simply curious as to what that's about. And in no way am I "attacking" you or your routes; I was making a general statement about all folks doing FA's with fixed protection and the intersection between their views on runouts and the application of fixed pro.

 

I'm not saying you as an FA shouldn't put them up how you call them; but saying folks might think you both did a fine job on one and didn't really "get" the line on another. We all have to accept that reality when we choose to employ fixed pro on an FA. Again, I wasn't commenting on your specific routes or style per se - which I haven't climbed as you rightly point out - so much as asking about your earlier comments relative to runouts. It was actually an attempt at real conversation.

 

All right, im sorry (realy have to switch to decaf). I personaly dont like to feel scarced while im climing. To me its ALL about having fun. Thats what I signed up for when Jim O took me up the corner over 10 years ago. And like I have stated. If I run it out and get hurt, then Im not climbing or having fun. Especially in a hospital bed. Just my thoughts. wave.gif

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Yes it's a troll. Korrigans and trolls are closely related.

 

But it seems I've done well. Although I need a squeegie to get off some of the spray on my monitor it's generated a good bit of discussion as well as clued me into some other possibilities on SCW that I had over looked.

 

I still think a bolt here or there can really add to a route. I'll never forget the bolt on the headwall pitch of South Face of Warlock Needle. I hadn't expected it but was so glad it was there. Even so the pitch was pretty wild for a non hard man like myself.

 

Discussing bolts is like discussing politics though. Nothing is ever accomplished. Fun though.

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Joseph-

 

Once it's been decided that a person is going to put fixed pro on a route, seems like they already admitted that they weren't up to the risk. It seems a bit contrived or a moot point to forgo additional fixed pro later up a route after this first concession.

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Once it's been decided that a person is going to put fixed pro on a route, seems like they already admitted that they weren't up to the risk. It seems a bit contrived or a moot point to forgo additional fixed pro later up a route after this first concession.

 

There's a big, big difference in the experience between one bolt on a pitch and twenty bolts on the same pitch. But according to your statement, if you place one bolt you may as well place twenty or thirty?

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Of course not...

 

But it ain't black and white. I'm particularly thinking of routes in which the crux is bolt protected low on the climb, the climbing eases significantly, yet the FA decides to bolt the rest of the route- even though if you pulled the crux, you'd have no problem finishing the route.

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...But I've worked hard at developing my craft with gear and have always free climbed above crack'n ups, hooks, microstoppers, small ball nuts, and using steeply pre-sliced screamers to keep the odds in my favor. That doesn't mean I regularly entertain death falls, but I don't hesitate to run it out above what others sometimes consider marginal pro. But I only do so because I've fallen on all of it many times in the past and know the limits of what it will likely sustain.

 

Simply slapping in bolts on mixed routes before developing advanced trad skills is pretty weak to me. I am far more inclined to respect a decision to bolt under such circumstances when they are made by someone who took the time to develop those advanced skills and understands the limits of what can and cannot be reasonably accomplished with gear...

Joseph, based on the above 2 sets of statements, I'd like to digress a little to ask: what is your opinion of what is reasonable gear for avoiding the placement of a bolt by an FA?

 

Let's say, hypothetically, that you're putting up a new route, and somewhere up one of the pitches (in a section that is on par with the overall grade of the climb - i.e. not necessarily the crux, but not really easy either) you come to a spot where it turns blank for about 40 feet before another good crack becomes available. On your way up, after 15 feet you find 1 placement for one of your little crack'n'ups w/ a screamer on it, and after another 10, you get in a little microstopper, before going the last 15 ft to a crack. As the FA, would you put any bolts in that section, or leave them off because you personally were able to protect that section with specialty pieces (knowing that the route would be R/X for anyone showing up with a more main-stream rack)?

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I know what the answer is going to be and so do you hemp. I remember Joseph saying he's only ever placed one bolt on a FA.

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