new bolts on p4 centerfold??!!

[132435465768]

today a friend and i climbed centerfold and were both shocked and quite pissed to find three brand new, shiny 3/8in bolts with the dust still on the rock next to the beginning thin corner crack of the final pitch. i find this to be an absolute affront to climbing in general, the crack is OBVIOUSLY protectable with small cams tcu's nuts or whatever the fuck else you want to throw in there! i have climbed the route four times and i think number five will be this weekend to choppety chop!!! dicks.

[Mos_Chillin]

[Metulhed]

Ok, I'm new to climbing, so please forgive me... but I don't get it? Someone put bolts in the rock face?

[selkirk]

Ok, I'm new to climbing, so please forgive me... but I don't get it? Someone put bolts in the rock face?

 

Before the flaming begins.....

 

It's considered very bad form to add bolts to any route. The standard trad ethic is to leave no impact, or as minimal a one as possible. If there is a crack for gear, you use gear. Bolts are reserved for climbs that can't be protected any other way (i.e. face, sport, etc.), and for the occasional rap station/belay where there aren't any other options.

 

Bolting a climb you developed

Replacing old nasty bolts (my opinion ) but it pisseses some people off.

Adding bolts to a climb with the first ascentionists permission (my opinion ) but some people frown on it.

Adding bolts to a climb without the first ascentionists permission and likely to get chopped.

[Metulhed]

Ah, gotcha... thanks for going easy on me.

[tyree]

CHOP THOSE FUCKERS! WE NEED TO FIND THE PRICKS WHO FUCKED UP THE ROCK AND SLAP THEM AROUND A BIT!

[jmace]

WHAT....takem out..holy crap

[David Trippett]

centrefold on the papoose?

[Sol]

Post deleted by frosty_the_tradman

[jmace]

ya geuss I should asked avitripps question first..haha

[soulreaper]

Is this thread about Index or Squamish? I'd be REALLY surprised if it's about Index; bolting that pitch would be an extremely flagrant abuse even considering the sloppy ethics (or lack thereof) in place at Index already.

As for discussion, the only grey area I see is a first ascentionist of an AID pitch adding fixed gear (bolts, pins) to facilitate free climbing on lead. This, along with a first ascentionist adding a bolt to lessen an extreme runout on other climbs, seems at times reasonable. Aid cragging at Index might still occur but in my experience free-climbing is certainly more popular these days.

That said, it is still a GREY area. A good opinion piece on the subject can be found on bigwalls.net; John Middendorf certainly has a point that this generation of climbers has the distinct ability to push boldness into new realms, while our tendency in reality is to lessen the boldness factor via bolting and retrobolting.

However, NO-ONE has the so-called right to bolt where gear is available. A first ascentionist retro-bolts a perfect parallel-sided crack to facilitate carrying less gear to the crag (and there are examples of this at Index)? Wrong! He/she is setting the poorest example possible for everyone else, second only to chipping a route. Even if the angst has settled down and more "seasoned" climbers lose the impassioned response that some of us experience in these situations that doesn't give them carte-blanche to destroy the resource for those of us who still have the desire to protect it.

If it's the Centrefold at Index we're talking about, those bolts are coming out. I can live with the handful of retrobolted A3-turned-free climbs, but even that should be looked at with extreme suspicion. Also, whoever is into "chopping" bolts should read up on how to do it on Middendorf's page and on the American Safe Climbing Association's website. Taking them out can scar the rock worse than leaving them if you don't know what you're doing.

Above all, laziness and indifference are the biggest enemies here; if no one wants to carry the gear, or to learn how to bolt/unbolt correctly, or to spend the time getting good enough at both climbing and placing gear to minimize bolt placement in the first place, then we're all going to be wading through the results of non-existent ethics.

Edited September 28, 2006 by soulreaper

[enelson]

i just got the new mountaingear cataloge and saw that i could buy all the shit i want to bolt everthing anywahere, and i though "wtf they shouldn't just sell this to everyone. people don't understand the ethics behind most of this, including me, and i would never think about putting bolts up without serious consideration to others" sorry that happened, if you can afford bolt equipment, buy some cams instead.

[G-spotter]

centerfold on the papoose is only 3 pitches long so i doubt bolts got added to its 4th pitch

[David Trippett]

centerfold on the papoose is only 3 pitches long so i doubt bolts got added to its 4th pitch

 

Yeah!

[Drederek]

Am glad I got to climb this early this year before this happened. I'm also glad that the first bolt (hangerless) was there for me to wrap a small stopper around as the first pitch was still especially slimey for the first 30 feet and wasn't really dry till I got up to the hard slabby bits. Please don't get overexcited and pull that one, it'd be easy to ignore when the route was dry and perhaps even clean. It has been awhile since I was up there and P2 seemed a bit different, maybe fewer pins and more bolts? Spicy seems a good description. And tricky with a key foothold wet. But there's no way any bolts are needed on P4, an immaculate stemming corner with good small cam or wire placements all the way up it!

[pope]

...has anyone talked to the first ascencionist, perhaps they retro'd the last pitch. not likely, but wouldn't they have the right to do so?

No they don't. Not when easy gear is available. Nobody has the right to bolt that kind of climbing.

 

 

...they're are retro'd bolted cracks and gear climbs all over Index. Just to name a few: Wham, Angora Grotto (hands down the most ridculous bolted crack i've ever seen), Just Say No to Frank Sinatra, Cunning Stunt, Dana's Arch. who is doing this and why, is a mystery to me. but lets just remember that Index has a long history of retro bolting climbs.

 

Oh, the old "evil is justified by abundant evil" argument. Come on, you're smarter than that.

 

Frosty the Tradman, maybe you should change your last name.

[Sol]

Post deleted by frosty_the_tradman

[lancegranite]

Replacing old anchor bolts seems fine with me, but adding new protection bolts to protect long standing traditional pitches is silly.

 

Of course, climbing in general is silly, as it is a pointless, selfish exersise.

[soulreaper]

Black Cat Bone is/was a victim of the classic "I don't want to have to carry gear to a crag that is otherwise all sport [save one climb that is an overgrown 12a R]." I will echo the concept that first ascentionists DO NOT have the right to add bolts next to cracks. The only possible motive would be laziness and indifference towards both the rock and the adventure quotient of any future ascents; this does not sit well with me, nor should it with anyone else who cares about the state of the rock.

In any case, those bolts on Centerfold are coming out. Whoever does the job: make sure you figure out what kind they are and use the correct method to remove them and patch the holes. If whoever added them is reading: put away your drill and learn to place really good, solid pro which is available in that section. Idiot.

[132435465768]

wonder bar, grey 2 part epoxy. got my fifth ascent. you will never even know they were there unless you look really hard. just for the record, i love sport climbing and regularly clip bolts, this was flat out wrong. first time i've aided the corner.... on BOMBER gear.

[Mos_Chillin]

 

Good job.

[DCramer]

So is it clear just what route the bolts are on?

 

With regard to the Index Centerfold: Pitch one as first climbed began up an easy although often dirty groove/corner and then moved left passing three bolts. Sometime after the FA one of the FA team cleaned off a cleaner bolt protected variation to just to the left of the groove. Comparing bolt counts between early ascents of this pitch and later ascents only makes sense if you are comparing apples to apples. Unless a bunch of bolts have been added to the upper section of p1 it should be possible to recreate the 3 bolt experience by climbing up the groove.

 

By the way a super fun (albeit with one really hard section) direct start has been TR’d.

[bwrts]

Replacing old anchor bolts seems fine with me, but adding new protection bolts to protect long standing traditional pitches is silly.

 

Of course, climbing in general is silly, as it is a pointless, selfish exersise.

Furthermore, A complete WASTE of TIME and ENERGY.

[tyree]

fuck, at least someone gives a shit enough about ethics to clean up that mess.I love bolts just as much as the next guy but for gods sake whoever drilled those bolts is a fucking IDIOT! Chump. BTW thanks for taking them down!!!