matt_m Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Not enough moderates....really? Rogers Corner, BOC, Princely Ambitions, Sagittarius, Godzilla, p2 City Park, Aries, GNS.. plus...a short hike over to the Country yeilds a few more. Don't play that game, for every moderate you name I can name twice or three times as many hard routes. Besides, there are not many more moderates than you listed above. Sure, but for every hard route you can name (and who can't?), you can probably find a point 40 feet up at which, if you built an anchor next to the crack, you'd get a "new" moderate free pitch. Does that make Index a better place to climb? Or does that accelerate the transformation of Index into the Exit 38 of US 2 ? complete bullshit retoric. just pull the anchor, step up and send or go home and eat wheaties. course, who is to say what is a "pitch"... how long of a rope constitutes one rope length up and anchor me here so to speak....natural features or where billyboy and marysue decide to leave permanent anchor???? bolting next to cracks of any size is gay anyways......perhaps lower down anchor needs to be relocated. "Step up and eat you wheaties!" ? Come on - that's just as worthless a comment as above. That would be fine to say to someone who was whining about an old school run-out slab or some beautiful 10a crack that had an 11c start to it - don't mess with what's already established. While this philosophy does not always hold true, for the most part, precedent (in this case a set of mid anchors that's been there for quite some time) is something to be respected, if for nothing else than to maintain some sort of harmony. I've heard people complain about them in the past but NO ONE was that worked up about it (unlike centerfold again). Unless a huge problem for the neighborhood - Climbers need to learn to let sleeping dogs lie. Those mid anchors: 1) Have been established for years. 2) Rarely effect those wanting to do the FULL P1 3) ARE in a natural location 4) Never got many worked up until chain went missing. Once again - CC.com proves not to be a compass of the climbing community but a bar table... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwallben Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Personally, it disgusts me that I can lower off of four different anchors while climbing Full Sagitarrius (with a 70 of course, the ltw rope of choice). Yes, these anchors have been there forever...but just because anchors have been there 'forever'...does it justify them to remain in perpetuity? Anachronistic anchors of bigone eras should carefully be removed to reduce visual clutter and keep Index clean. Regarding the Jap short anchor: I'm also personally glad that someone took it. Japanese gardens is a great portal to so much climbing higher on the cliff, in addition to tpmv free and stern farmer which start there. I can remember my first time to the ltw in 95 when this short anchor in the flake did not exist. I believe that this anchor is an eyesore and out of character with this particular traditional line. Moreover, it wouldn't bother me not to see huge parties spending their entire day toproping here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_m Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 (edited) Personally, it disgusts me that I can lower off of four different anchors while climbing Full Sagitarrius (with a 70 of course, the ltw rope of choice). Yes, these anchors have been there forever...but just because anchors have been there 'forever'...does it justify them to remain in perpetuity? Anachronistic anchors of bigone eras should carefully be removed to reduce visual clutter and keep Index clean. Regarding the Jap short anchor: I'm also personally glad that someone took it. Japanese gardens is a great portal to so much climbing higher on the cliff, in addition to tpmv free and stern farmer which start there. I can remember my first time to the ltw in 95 when this short anchor in the flake did not exist. I believe that this anchor is an eyesore and out of character with this particular traditional line. Moreover, it wouldn't bother me not to see huge parties spending their entire day toproping here. I agree that the lowest anchor (before you pull around into the chimney section) is out of place, I don't think the anchor under the roof is "disgusting" at all. (not sure of the 4th you refer to - the anchor near the ringing flake on iron horse that Croft freed?) If you were to pull that anchor under the roof you effectively make that an exclusive climb for the 11+ set (I think it's harder than JG P1) making the lower high quality 80+ feet off limits to those "not worthy". While anchor clutter can be a problem let's not fall for using "esthetics as an excuse for exclusivity". Part of what makes Index so appealing to many is it's amazing mixture of harder gear and bolted climbing within close proximity to one another. Trying to "force" it one way or another is out of character with the less rigid style of development seen at the cliffs. If you're looking for staunch ethics, index much to my relief, is not the place nor does it need to be - I can travel both near and far to enjoy more conservative ethics. I travel to index to climb hard, esthetic lines where the FAists were as much practical as they were prolific. Everyone should just read DC's post. There's history there that's older than any previously mentioned. I too don't support a lot of "Short pitching" but I also don't see it as an out of control problem by any means. DC notes the bolts of Stern Farmer are certainly more out of place... Again, leave it be. Re-authoring routes and history almost ALWAYS leads to more harm than good. I'd rather spend by breath and effort cleaning up forgotten routes and anchors than waste it on an anchor I merely climb by on my way to other things. Like the upper JG pitches! Edited October 3, 2006 by matt_m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Your right matt m, I left the bar and decided to log on to some cc.com bar talk. Anchors were set were they were long ago due to rope lengths being wwwwwaaay shorter than the so-called LTW "70m rope of choice" so this arguement really is mute. I find it necessary to bitch about the removal of one bolt but not the other. Bolt by crack is a atrocity that should be dealt with by person who removed first bolt. Lower down anchor should be placed in blank section of wall so when Dave Grahmn comes to send some sick new testpiece "He will have a new RAD project." okay now back to my beer drinking...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted October 3, 2006 Share Posted October 3, 2006 Anchors were set were they were long ago due to rope lengths being wwwwwaaay shorter than the so-called LTW "70m rope of choice" so this arguement really is mute. Assuming that they used 120' ropes they could have reached the belay above the roof. I bet they were using 150'. In any event a review of some photos of the FA shows that the leader had a beefy haul/rap line tied to his harness. The bolts I mentioned are not on Stern Farmer but are located just to the right. They lead up to a horizontal break. Has this gone free? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Not enough moderates....really? Rogers Corner, BOC, Princely Ambitions, Sagittarius, Godzilla, p2 City Park, Aries, GNS.. plus...a short hike over to the Country yeilds a few more. Don't play that game, for every moderate you name I can name twice or three times as many hard routes. Besides, there are not many more moderates than you listed above. Sure, but for every hard route you can name (and who can't?), you can probably find a point 40 feet up at which, if you built an anchor next to the crack, you'd get a "new" moderate free pitch. Does that make Index a better place to climb? Or does that accelerate the transformation of Index into the Exit 38 of US 2 ? complete bullshit retoric. just pull the anchor, step up and send or go home and eat wheaties. course, who is to say what is a "pitch"... how long of a rope constitutes one rope length up and anchor me here so to speak....natural features or where billyboy and marysue decide to leave permanent anchor???? bolting next to cracks of any size is gay anyways......perhaps lower down anchor needs to be relocated. "Step up and eat you wheaties!" ? Come on - that's just as worthless a comment as above. That would be fine to say to someone who was whining about an old school run-out slab or some beautiful 10a crack that had an 11c start to it - don't mess with what's already established. While this philosophy does not always hold true, for the most part, precedent (in this case a set of mid anchors that's been there for quite some time) is something to be respected, if for nothing else than to maintain some sort of harmony. I've heard people complain about them in the past but NO ONE was that worked up about it (unlike centerfold again). Unless a huge problem for the neighborhood - Climbers need to learn to let sleeping dogs lie. Those mid anchors: 1) Have been established for years. 2) Rarely effect those wanting to do the FULL P1 3) ARE in a natural location 4)Never got many worked up until chain went missing. Once again - CC.com proves not to be a compass of the climbing community but a bar table... Thanks for contributing....to the chain of worthless comments. I thought the anchor was really stupid from the moment I saw it and I've never changed my mind. NOW is an appropriate time to discuss whether or not effort should be made to restore an anchor IN THE MIDDLE OF A PITCH RIGHT NEXT TO A CRACK, for crying out loud. You can argue something to the effect that "since it survived this long, it is appropriate"....but if you think about it, that argument is similarly hollow to cranial cavities of those who think this anchor is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 I agree with both arguments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 I agree with both arguments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 ummm...hello, allow me to introduce myself. i'm the moderate climber you bad asses so readily dismiss. i'm never going to get better than moderate. i don't climb enough. i'm never going to climb enough. some years i'm more moderate than others. guess what? i like to climb cracks. that lower portion of jap gardens is a favorite of mine. i personally don't consider those anchors anything other than anchors. don't use them to protect the crack, i use them to get off the damn pitch. sorry the "pitch" is too short for you. sorry if i'm in your way. i'm not taking all day on the climb. i'm not hanging out all day TRing. i'm looking to enjoy some moderate pitches. wait a few minutes and i'll be done. go climb something else. i'm sorry if moderate climbers are ruining your bad ass index experience. i wish i could climb harder. i don't. that sure the hell doesn't mean i shouldn't get to enjoy a day of cragging. i agree...don't bolt a damn crack. however, there are anchors all over the place at index. sorry if that anchor doesn't suit some of you but that's what it is. an anchor so some of us moderate climbers have another option at LTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 well spoken minx... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 ummm...hello, allow me to introduce myself. i'm the moderate climber you bad asses so readily dismiss. i'm never going to get better than moderate. i don't climb enough. i'm never going to climb enough. some years i'm more moderate than others. guess what? i like to climb cracks. that lower portion of jap gardens is a favorite of mine. i personally don't consider those anchors anything other than anchors. don't use them to protect the crack, i use them to get off the damn pitch. sorry the "pitch" is too short for you. sorry if i'm in your way. i'm not taking all day on the climb. i'm not hanging out all day TRing. i'm looking to enjoy some moderate pitches. wait a few minutes and i'll be done. go climb something else. i'm sorry if moderate climbers are ruining your bad ass index experience. i wish i could climb harder. i don't. that sure the hell doesn't mean i shouldn't get to enjoy a day of cragging. i agree...don't bolt a damn crack. however, there are anchors all over the place at index. sorry if that anchor doesn't suit some of you but that's what it is. an anchor so some of us moderate climbers have another option at LTW. well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mountainmatt Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Totally agree with Minx. If you don't like 'em, don't clip 'em. The holes you left behind after choping don't help anyone. At least the bolts allow some of us "moderate" climbers with a short pitch to climb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 ummm...hello, allow me to introduce myself. i'm the moderate climber you bad asses so readily dismiss. i'm never going to get better than moderate. i don't climb enough. i'm never going to climb enough. some years i'm more moderate than others. guess what? i like to climb cracks. that lower portion of jap gardens is a favorite of mine. i personally don't consider those anchors anything other than anchors. don't use them to protect the crack, i use them to get off the damn pitch. sorry the "pitch" is too short for you. sorry if i'm in your way. i'm not taking all day on the climb. i'm not hanging out all day TRing. i'm looking to enjoy some moderate pitches. wait a few minutes and i'll be done. go climb something else. i'm sorry if moderate climbers are ruining your bad ass index experience. i wish i could climb harder. i don't. that sure the hell doesn't mean i shouldn't get to enjoy a day of cragging. i agree...don't bolt a damn crack. however, there are anchors all over the place at index. sorry if that anchor doesn't suit some of you but that's what it is. an anchor so some of us moderate climbers have another option at LTW. Minx, I would hope every rock climber would cringe at the idea of sticking an anchor a fraction of the way up a crack pitch of ANY difficulty. Whether the full pitch is something way out of your league or whether you could free solo it SHOULD be irrelevant. To illustrate, imagine a climb like Illusion Dweller in Joshua Tree. If you can handle 5.10-, you can probably finish that pitch (which features its crux near the top). Now let's suppose that you, Minx, are a 5.10- climber who loves climbing cracks (which you state to be true) and who can finish that pitch (which we can assume to be true if you can handle the "shorty" version of Japanese Gardens). Now let's suppose a 5.8 Mountie decides that if Illusion Dweller featured an anchor 30 feet below the top, it would "add" an excellent 5.8 pitch to Joshua Tree. Would you support that? What about creating a nice 5.6 climb by putting an anchor below the bulge on Classic Crack? I think you would not. You see, it's all a matter of degree. The "shorty" version of Japanese Gardens appeals to you and that is precisely why you think the anchor is appropriate. Anybody who thinks otherwise must be intolerant of climbers who pursue moderate climbs. Well, I think you're missing the point. That short anchor on Japanese Gardens is a bad idea regardless of how hard the long pitch or short pitch is, and definitely regardless of Minx's desires and abilities/limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt45 Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 So should anchors only be 'allowed' a full rope length up the wall? It seems that this would eliminate ALL of the commonly used anchors at Index. In fact a traditional purist could argue that everyone who climbs at Index should be required to top out on the lower wall and hike down... In any case, with that anchor intact every lower wall route that I know of can be climbed with one 60m rope, and fixed rappel anchors partway down a >30m pitch are generally acceptable, so I certainly would not mind to see it return. (Yes this is just a matter of convenience, but all Index fixed anchors are there for convenience to avoid the necessity of topping out...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Phil Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 And what about the short anchors on Narrow Arrow Overhang? The crack bolting by the sportos at Index is a bit excessive as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 POPE--it is all a matter of degrees and appeal. I agree with you. I don't want to see anchors added mid crack on a long crack climb. H/E in this case the anchor is already there. Doesn't matter how or why it got there. It is. I have not advocated added any anchors but i'm going to be wicked pissed if I get up there and the anchor that's been there for many years is gone. You can't undrill the holes in the rock. Leave it alone. I haven't encouraged the addition of any new hardwear. Just dismissed the implication that removing an existing anchor will somehow improve the asthetic. If you don't like it don't use it. I admit it seems like it wouldn't make sense to put it in there. Too Late. It's already there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Anchors were set were they were long ago due to rope lengths being wwwwwaaay shorter than the so-called LTW "70m rope of choice" so this arguement really is mute. Assuming that they used 120' ropes they could have reached the belay above the roof. I bet they were using 150'. In any event a review of some photos of the FA shows that the leader had a beefy haul/rap line tied to his harness. The bolts I mentioned are not on Stern Farmer but are located just to the right. They lead up to a horizontal break. Has this gone free? and if they had 150' ropes could they rap to the ground with out the haul/rap line visible in the photos? Honestly, the bolts have prooven useful to me but I clipped the anchor in disgusted retreat due to the proximity to the crack. Yet, if I would have had the gumption to conitnue and attempt the difficult Full Pitch 1, I would have done so by clipping the lower down anchor/short pitch 1 anchor. This to me, is legal since the bolts are there long ago. I do support removal and relocation. Realistically would a relocation proove useful or accessable for someone climbing the short pitch?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 ummm...hello, allow me to introduce myself. i'm the moderate climber you bad asses so readily dismiss. i'm never going to get better than moderate. i don't climb enough. i'm never going to climb enough. some years i'm more moderate than others. guess what? i like to climb cracks. that lower portion of jap gardens is a favorite of mine. i personally don't consider those anchors anything other than anchors. don't use them to protect the crack, i use them to get off the damn pitch. sorry the "pitch" is too short for you. sorry if i'm in your way. i'm not taking all day on the climb. i'm not hanging out all day TRing. i'm looking to enjoy some moderate pitches. wait a few minutes and i'll be done. go climb something else. i'm sorry if moderate climbers are ruining your bad ass index experience. i wish i could climb harder. i don't. that sure the hell doesn't mean i shouldn't get to enjoy a day of cragging. i agree...don't bolt a damn crack. however, there are anchors all over the place at index. sorry if that anchor doesn't suit some of you but that's what it is. an anchor so some of us moderate climbers have another option at LTW. Minx, I would hope every rock climber would cringe at the idea of sticking an anchor a fraction of the way up a crack pitch of ANY difficulty. Whether the full pitch is something way out of your league or whether you could free solo it SHOULD be irrelevant. To illustrate, imagine a climb like Illusion Dweller in Joshua Tree. If you can handle 5.10-, you can probably finish that pitch (which features its crux near the top). Now let's suppose that you, Minx, are a 5.10- climber who loves climbing cracks (which you state to be true) and who can finish that pitch (which we can assume to be true if you can handle the "shorty" version of Japanese Gardens). Now let's suppose a 5.8 Mountie decides that if Illusion Dweller featured an anchor 30 feet below the top, it would "add" an excellent 5.8 pitch to Joshua Tree. Would you support that? What about creating a nice 5.6 climb by putting an anchor below the bulge on Classic Crack? I think you would not. You see, it's all a matter of degree. The "shorty" version of Japanese Gardens appeals to you and that is precisely why you think the anchor is appropriate. Anybody who thinks otherwise must be intolerant of climbers who pursue moderate climbs. Well, I think you're missing the point. That short anchor on Japanese Gardens is a bad idea regardless of how hard the long pitch or short pitch is, and definitely regardless of Minx's desires and abilities/limitations. man, you are a clown...there's a full on ledge no hands order-a-pizza stance right there...it doesn't do diddly squat to the full version...just paint them brown so they aren't glaring to groundpounders and move on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Anchors were set were they were long ago due to rope lengths being wwwwwaaay shorter than the so-called LTW "70m rope of choice" so this arguement really is mute. Assuming that they used 120' ropes they could have reached the belay above the roof. I bet they were using 150'. In any event a review of some photos of the FA shows that the leader had a beefy haul/rap line tied to his harness. The bolts I mentioned are not on Stern Farmer but are located just to the right. They lead up to a horizontal break. Has this gone free? and if they had 150' ropes could they rap to the ground with out the haul/rap line visible in the photos? Honestly, the bolts have prooven useful to me but I clipped the anchor in disgusted retreat due to the proximity to the crack. Yet, if I would have had the gumption to conitnue and attempt the difficult Full Pitch 1, I would have done so by clipping the lower down anchor/short pitch 1 anchor. This to me, is legal since the bolts are there long ago. I do support removal and relocation. Realistically would a relocation proove useful or accessable for someone climbing the short pitch?? again, they are in a perfect stance location...totally obvious location if one would put in a "mid pitch" anchor... pretty trivial deal if you ask me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Here is a copy of a topo from the 1975 Index guide. The topo is a bit inaccurate but I have marked “here” where the original "short" anchor is clearly shown. What the topo does not show is that there is a no hands stance at the anchor. The original anchor was a pin at your feet and a bolt about knee level. The new one is higher and to the left. This location is more visible. This is not a case of “moderate” climbers wanting to add an anchor to a “hard” climb. The question is should “moderate’ climbers loose a climb because an entire route was freed. Colt45 – I think you would be forced to reach the same conclusion a variety of crags. For example: the Cookie Cliff in Yosemite. Phil – Weak troll the anchors on NA Overhang haven’t moved as far back I can remember. Rudy - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt45 Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Colt45 – I think you would be forced to reach the same conclusion a variety of crags. For example: the Cookie Cliff in Yosemite. Agreed, I was just trying to point out the logical extension of Pope's statement "Minx, I would hope every rock climber would cringe at the idea of sticking an anchor a fraction of the way up a crack pitch of ANY difficulty." It's pretty arbitrary to say where a crack pitch begins and ends, unless the crack system itself blanks out or continues to the top of the wall. By Pope's argument, the 'full pitch' anchor would not be ok either because the crack system keeps going! So I guess he cringed upon seeing that anchor too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 Post deleted by Off_White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCramer Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I must confess I cringed too when I first saw it but after seeing so many trip reports that listed JP p1 “short” as a climb I decided that it was probably a good thing. Back before larger cams were common starting up the flared flake/corner was fairly committing and the new bolt location reduced that commitment. Now you can just slip a cam in and there is no practical difference. This horse does seem to be dead! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
korrigan Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 This horse was dead before it started. Talk about spray. It's simply B.S for somebody to take it upon themselves to remove bolts that have been in place for any amount of time. Whether your an oh so cool index hard man or not. In any case start talking about bolts and the internet tough guys come out of the woodwork. Don't like 'em don't clip em. You don't like an area getting bolted then go find your own freeking crag and go soloing. This whole thing about 'it was this way or that way when I learned to climb back in diapers in prehistoric times' isn't a justification for removing bolts. Like it or not guys there's a whole world out there that wants to climb and they may not want to do it your way with pink tights and a bald spot. Get used to it or find some other place to climb. Index is a stinkin quary for god sakes and the trains rumble by and pour black soot on it several times a day, hell you could probably get high just licking off the meth residue from the locals and yet you're going to spray on endlessly about a couple of bolts. Sheesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beecher Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I am one of those hated climbers who doesn't climb all that much and will probably never be all that good at it, but who gets a lot out of climbing and enjoys improving a smidge every year. Last Saturday I went to Index for the first time in several years. My first visit to Index was as a complete and utter beginner 6 or 7 years ago - I didn't go back until last Saturday. All the short anchors I saw seemed out of context to me. If I were a stronger climber I would probably outright object to them. But they are ALREADY THERE. As it is, I think most people understand it is poor style to camp out on toprope at the bottom of a longer climb. I would be careful not to abuse the privelege of using the anchors by delaying other climbers who are looking to 'play through'. This courtesy may need to be explained to some climbers, which isn't too difficult to do in a nonconfrontational way. All that said, from my perspective and observations of climbing ethics, chopping long-established anchors anonymously and without discussion probably exhibits a greater lack of respect for the local climbing community than having some fun on a short pitch. This discussion should have been resolved when the anchors were first installed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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