Bolt Help

[ketch]

So any of you geologists or experienced bolters this one is for you. I have recently been given access to start putting up stuff on a good sized series of cliffs. They look like fun as they will most likely be accessed via water. The trick is that they are all a tight conglomerate. They have weathered as an exposed sea cliff for a long time with no deterioration so I am pretty sure of the stability.

 

Here's the questions. I am assuming that stainless bolts are better with the salt exposure (and accepting more rapid deteriration). Is it possible and are there any tricks to bolting conglomerate? Any help that somebody out there would pass along would be good.

[fern]

http://www.ushba.com/catalog/rock.html#tortuga

[TrogdortheBurninator]

All the sea cliffs in Sardinia when I was there used stainless Petzl glue ins.

[billcoe]

#1 choice is Titanium glue ins. This is the number one choice by a wide margin. Ushba Titanium Link

 

#2 is Type 316 Stainless Steel glue ins then Wedge anchors.

 

a distant 3nd is Standard Stainless - which is type 304.

 

I have the deal for you, let me know how many you need. MarkD, how much am I selling 1/2 x 3-3/4 type 316 bolts for? I basically am selling for cost and 10% to handle freight out of Fla. and paperwork.

 

If it was me, and the cliff was high quality and likely to see lots of people, I'd love to do Titanium. It is the best. However, I think they sell for something like $15.95 each or some outrageous amount like that.

 

Putting 304 hangers on 316 studs will cause some galvanic action (corrosion), painting the hangers would get you additional years out of the hangers but they still would be the first to go. You should be able to extend the useful life if you coated all exposed parts with clear epoxy. The studs would still be in good condition when you saw that the hangers were looking like shit, the first place to corrode on the hanger would be the exposed part nearest to touching the stud. It would be visible and thus safe for some future climber.

 

Type 316 chain is available and that would be the prefered material for a type 316 wedge anchor if you don't go with the Tortuga Titanium glues in. You would get years and years of service from them, and you should be able to extend that if you coated all exposed parts with clear epoxy. You would want to use clear so any underneath corrosion would be visible.

 

The very worst thing would be any steel wedge anchor, where the sleeve would rust through, and the placement would be shit, but it would not even be visible to the naked eye, being below surface and all, so it might be dangerous as hell, and no one would know till it failed. Like an Alien that way:-) (oh shit, bet this is headed to spray now.... damn)

[Peter_Puget]

Hey Bill how do you find the Ti bolts work? Installationwise and in use.

[billcoe]

Hey Bill how do you find the Ti bolts work? Installationwise and in use.

 

Like any standard glue in except they will outlive your dog. You just have to be careful on the installation, the glue can't be pressed out, and you have to wait for it to fully cure, but there is plenty of info on the net on doing the install correctly. Ushba recommends an 11mil bit I think and the Hilti Epoxy, I think I had read of testing of various epoxy and some work signifigantly better than others. So I'd look for that research as well.

 

Edited to add, I am too cheap to buy and place them, but I don't live or climb on the coast either. Anyone who owns a boat and keeps it moored at the coast in the salt water can tell you about the corrosion properties of stainless.

Edited August 29, 2006 by billcoe

[billcoe]

I re-read the question.

 

I think I'd want to explore how strong the conglomerate type rock is very carefully before you get too far into the whole project. With todays modern drills, you might want and/or need to drill an anchor which goes 12" deep or deeper. You might be able to use standard cut 1/2 diameter x 12"-24" long type 316 cut ATR and Epoxy them in, and have the custom anchors be as good or better than anything made off the shelf, dependant on rock strength. The Titanium will last longest, but are not that deep.

 

Rock strength should be looked at closely.

[Peter_Puget]

Darn. I was hoping to get some actual feedback on the USHBA bolts. The glue USHBA recommends is no longer (for several years) available. There are other glues available. If you use hilti adhesives, I think you will have to buy a Hilti glue gun as well. Orienting the bolt in the direction of the pull is important. The size of the bolt is so large that it can be an issue on certain climbs - particularly if they are not steep/overhanging. If the bolt is not aligned with the angle of the pull it is very easy for the bolt to become a spinner. In softer rock many create small channels to lock in the bolt and prevent spinners. This also helps to solve the large size problem.

 

As Bill notes the USHBA bolts are fairly shallow.

[ketch]

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking possibly glue-ins fro the marine enviroment.

 

Bill, I too am wondering about the matrix of the rock. This particular batch is primarily larger (2" -6" round rock) with varying from 1" to 3" of matrix in between. It seems solid to the hand and to relatively hard wacks with a hammer. In some of the places I observerved cracks tha have propagated through the cobbles and all.

 

Any info on how to verify the rock? Should I try to place in the matrix or in the cobbles?

 

Who knows I may just top rope some prospects for a bit and then have a more knowledgable guest for a visit.

[David Trippett]

Metaconglomerates are the metamorphic equivalents of conglomerates. Heat and sometimes pressure are the agents of metamorphism that create metaconglomerates. The distinguishing characteristic between a metaconglomerate and a conglomerate is how the rock breaks. In a TYPICAL conglomerate the cement that holds the cobbles together is not a durable as the cobbles themselves. When broken the cement gives way - it breaks around the cobbles. However, in a metaconglomerate, the cement has been re-crystallized and is often as strong as the rock cobbles. As a result, upon breaking a metaconglomerate, the break is through the whole rock, cobbles and all.

 

There are several shades of gray though....so what you have may not be so clear cut.

[archenemy]

Metaconglomerates are the metamorphic equivalents of conglomerates. Heat and sometimes pressure are the agents of metamorphism that create metaconglomerates. The distinguishing characteristic between a metaconglomerate and a conglomerate is how the rock breaks. In a TYPICAL conglomerate the cement that holds the cobbles together is not a durable as the cobbles themselves. When broken the cement gives way - it breaks around the cobbles. However, in a metaconglomerate, the cement has been re-crystallized and is often as strong as the rock cobbles. As a result, upon breaking a metaconglomerate, the break is through the whole rock, cobbles and all.

 

There are several shades of gray though....so what you have may not be so clear cut.

Cool!

I wonder if the rock I climbed in Monserrat, Spain was a metaconglomerate. Is there an index of meta-c rock formations online somewhere?

Thanks.

[shapp]

time for hanman to weigh in

[MarkMcJizzy]

1) There has been discussion of the suitability of stainless bolts in a marine environment

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=239389&f=140&b=0. The main concern seems to be the activity of the chlorine ion causing stress corrosion cracking. That said, I have spent a lot of time in pulp mills with highly corrosive marine, acid, and basic environments. SS is used often, and I have never heard of an engineer ever being concerned about stress corrosion.

 

2) Simpson glue is available in tubes that use a standard caulking gun. Their glue conforms to many of the same specifications as Hilti glue. With any glue, cleanliness of the hole is of prime importance.

 

3) If the rock is well indurated (competent), I would think that the matrix would be the best place to drill.

 

Metaconglomerates are the metamorphic equivalents of conglomerates. Heat and sometimes pressure are the agents of metamorphism that create metaconglomerates. The distinguishing characteristic between a metaconglomerate and a conglomerate is how the rock breaks. In a TYPICAL conglomerate the cement that holds the cobbles together is not a durable as the cobbles themselves. When broken the cement gives way - it breaks around the cobbles. However, in a metaconglomerate, the cement has been re-crystallized and is often as strong as the rock cobbles. As a result, upon breaking a metaconglomerate, the break is through the whole rock, cobbles and all.

 

There are several shades of gray though....so what you have may not be so clear cut.

 

I disagree with much of this. There are many examples of shear cutting through the cobbles and the indurated matrix of rocks in clearly sedimentary terranes. This can be seen in several locations of the Peshastin Pinnacles. The main factor determining joints propagation is the dynamics of the jointing. Shear jointing will travel thru cobbles in even rather poorly indurated sandstones. Unloading joints will follow the surface of the cobbles.

 

 

Cool!

I wonder if the rock I climbed in Monserrat, Spain was a metaconglomerate. Is there an index of meta-c rock formations online somewhere?

Thanks.

 

Metaconglomerates are a very common metamorphic rock, and are likely to be found where continental sediments have been metamorphosed. The Cascade River Schist has some nice examples.

[billcoe]

You might have to do some trial and error work Ketch but I'll bet you would be able to figure it out pretty quick.

 

You could put something in smaller than you think you will be normally using and drop test a weighted rope on a FF2 fall or as close as you can set it up.

 

I suspect that just getting on it and drilling will give you a real good feel for how strong the rock is. Try drilling some different areas to see if there is variation. You might go drill some granite or basalt beforehand with that exact drill bit and setup to see how long it takes to sink the drillbit in the required depth and how that "feel" transfers to your new rock. The cementing agents of the Breccia or conglomerate could be 2 on the Mohs scale all the way to harder than the hubs of hell if its a compressed quartz. Who the hell really knows till you get on it and put the drill to it, but then you'll know. Those guys in England are climbing on the crumbly chalk-like white cliffs of Dover with ice tools. They've figured out how to do it without dieing and I suspect you will too.

 

-Damned excited for you, my fingers are itching right now just thinking of the adventures you must be looking forward too.-

 

Here's some links to help out: I think the second one, the dudes masters thesis, is some great stuff. Remember that you won't be using anything 8mm or smaller like was tested. Translating metric, 10mm would be close to 3/8" (tad larger). Sounds like your rock may be stronger than his too. I suspect that the blocks that cracked in the tests would be less likely to split if they were left as part of a larger cliff structure and not just detatched blocks in a lab hooked up to a machine. But it should give you a feel for a good comp. material.

 

Safer climbing link

 

Masters Theses re: bolting in Sandstone

 

Enjoy and keep us posted will ya?

[David Trippett]

I disagree with much of this. There are many examples of shear cutting through the cobbles and the indurated matrix of rocks in clearly sedimentary terranes. This can be seen in several locations of the Peshastin Pinnacles. The main factor determining joints propagation is the dynamics of the jointing. Shear jointing will travel thru cobbles in even rather poorly indurated sandstones. Unloading joints will follow the surface of the cobbles.

 

 

 

 

is that pure or simple shear?

 

....well thats pretty much the accepted GEOLOGICAL (maybe you're a geo-tech?) definition. You'll see I put the word "TYPICAL" in all-caps just in case anyone might bring up some unusual examples....which I am sure there are.... furthermore I don't give a rats arse.

 

Theres an old joke....get a geologist, you'll get an answer, get two and you'll get an argument....get three geologists and it's an AA meeting.

 

My experience putting up new routes with Shammick on Koh Phi Phi and Ton Sai in Thailand was that if you are going to bolt in a marine environment....then Titanium is the way to go. I saw tons of stainless glue-ins that lasted a couple seasons before they were highly suspect or removed without much effort. That being said, Thailand is as bad as it gets for bolts.

 

Using Ti is pricey though, and you need to ask yourself: How much traffic are the routes going to see? Is it worth it to spend 200$ per route? If I use something cheaper, will the route be dangerous the next time someone climbs it?

[hanman]

I have done a bit of bolting both industrial and sandstone/conglomerate with Powers AC100. Rapid bolt up of the hanger within 2 hours usually, and the coaxial tube fits in a standard caulking gun. Powers specs call for a 7/16" hole with a 3/8" stud. Other good epoxies are Sonneborn Rapid Gel and the newer Hilti products (2 part mixing gun is required however). As the Big 4 conglomerate I have experienced goes, it is by far much harder to drill than granite. I found that the Hilti bits would overheat and "unweld" the carbide tip, leaving the tip in the hole, and eating another 9$. Bosch bits worked the best. I hope to retro that Tower route this year or next with 5" long 304 SS threaded rod or the new Hilti TZ stainless anchors with AC100. Anyone want to help?

 

MH

[Jens]

Is it possible and are there any tricks to bolting conglomerate? .

The only conglomerate I've bolted has been at fossil rock. We'd bolt the largish rocks not the "stuff" holding the cobbles together. A geologist told me that fossil wasn't welded tuff. When I climbed at maple canyon in Utah (cong.) I noticed the locals had done the same thing.