This is gettin' unnerving....

[RuMR]

looks like maybe user-error, but still weird, especially coupled with the recent paradise forx deal...

 

aliens!

[sk]

looks like maybe user-error, but still weird, especially coupled with the recent paradise forx deal...

 

aliens!

 

okay here is where the arugments start. what ever happend to the leader never falls ethic? if you climb to fall you will. if you climb above your ability level your likelyhood of falling increases. if you repeatedly take falls your chances of dying increse dramaticly. perhpas we are expecting gear to do something only bolts were ment to do. hang dogging was invened by sport climbing because it is safer (not safe but safer) to take a fall.

 

let the bashing begin

[RuMR]

muffy, then why put gear in, why not solo? That is about the dumbest thing short of something flyingpig and his girlfriend kevboned would say...

 

Personally, if i place something i expect the fucking thing to work...

[ashw_justin]

I call bullshit on the perfect placement. A perfect placement doesn't blow before the pro. I could understand though if the gear simply wasn't engineered correctly, but many, many falling leaders would beg to differ.

[RuMR]

I totally agree...one possibility is that CCH doesn't have the frickin' axle in the right place...

[G-spotter]

One possibility is that only dumbasses ever bought CCH in the first place

[sk]

muffy, then why put gear in, why not solo? That is about the dumbest thing short of something flyingpig and his girlfriend kevboned would say...

 

Personally, if i place something i expect the fucking thing to work...

 

you are totaly missing my point. and you know it. gear as we know it now was invented at a time when climbing was persued in a different way than it is today. I think that if you want to spend your day hang dogging on active pro then maybe you aught to engienier a kind of pro that is desinged to hand dog on. not pro that was designed in case of a fall... (not because you are going to fall on that crux 4 times before you can wire the move)

 

I have seen a shodily placed yellow alien hold just fine. but that was one of very few falls that piece had ever seen, likely has seen to this day. how many falls had the piece that blew seen? you tell me? was it commen for this climber to push above his climbing limit and tork out so hard he had to place the pice and down climb to rest inorder to make the move through the crux? and if so perhaps he aught to spend more time climbing at his level.

 

we all want pices to hold but the fact of the sport is it is fucking dangerouse. if it were safe it would be hocky

 

think again Rumr you will see there is logic in what i am saying and it is not just muffy logic.

 

we put gear in for the same reason most of us waare a seat belt or a helmet. just in case we fall it gives us better odds than nothing at all. most people do not put on a seat belt and think to them selves "well i have my seat belt on now i am going to ram my car into the next brick wall i see. I will be fine, i have my seat belt on."

 

it gives us a chance to continue to live where otherwise we would have no hope. I have never ever read any garentee on any peice of gear anywehre that has said it will make climbing safe.

[still_climbin]

The "perfect placement" moniker works just about as well in mother nature as the calculation that begins "first, assume a cow to be a perfect sphere." The whole thing is risk management and probabilities. Yes, we can follow the leader never falls philosophy but then'l be the time a well used crystal crumbles under the shoe of the leader at the crux. I've never assigned 100% to any placement and I began climbing in the chrome-moly piton days. I use Aliens and this news does not disturb me. An Alien parting at the braze does.

[RuMR]

muffy, then why put gear in, why not solo? That is about the dumbest thing short of something flyingpig and his girlfriend kevboned would say...

 

Personally, if i place something i expect the fucking thing to work...

 

you are totaly missing my point. and you know it. gear as we know it now was invented at a time when climbing was persued in a different way than it is today. I think that if you want to spend your day hang dogging on active pro then maybe you aught to engienier a kind of pro that is desinged to hand dog on. not pro that was designed in case of a fall... (not because you are going to fall on that crux 4 times before you can wire the move)

 

I have seen a shodily placed yellow alien hold just fine. but that was one of very few falls that piece had ever seen, likely has seen to this day. how many falls had the piece that blew seen? you tell me? was it commen for this climber to push above his climbing limit and tork out so hard he had to place the pice and down climb to rest inorder to make the move through the crux? and if so perhaps he aught to spend more time climbing at his level.

 

we all want pices to hold but the fact of the sport is it is fucking dangerouse. if it were safe it would be hocky

 

think again Rumr you will see there is logic in what i am saying and it is not just muffy logic.

 

we put gear in for the same reason most of us waare a seat belt or a helmet. just in case we fall it gives us better odds than nothing at all. most people do not put on a seat belt and think to them selves "well i have my seat belt on now i am going to ram my car into the next brick wall i see. I will be fine, i have my seat belt on."

 

it gives us a chance to continue to live where otherwise we would have no hope. I have never ever read any garentee on any peice of gear anywehre that has said it will make climbing safe.

 

that philosophy of yours will limit you...ie, you can't work something at your limit if you can't pound on the gear...that is great that you've seen a "shodily placed alien" hold...whatever, the point remains that if i place a piece that i deem to be able to hold a fall (whether its one, two or a hundred) the piece better hold or i got some serious issues with the design. An analogy is when i click my seatbelt in, i expect the seat belt to remain fastened. big duh there.

 

and your thoughts about hang dogging and cams not going together is total bullshit...the guy who INVENTED the cams was one of the first doggers in the valley and his express purpose for inventing friends was to get on cracks that were cutting edge at the time (some still are pretty stiff) and he WORKED the shit out of those routes...you wanna argue some more? Or do you wanna go out and climb some choss pile that you KNOW you aren't gonna fall on and if maybe you do the gear "might" hold?????

 

it must be great to operate in a world running on "muff logic"!

[RuMR]

The "perfect placement" moniker works just about as well in mother nature as the calculation that begins "first, assume a cow to be a perfect sphere." The whole thing is risk management and probabilities. Yes, we can follow the leader never falls philosophy but then'l be the time a well used crystal crumbles under the shoe of the leader at the crux. I've never assigned 100% to any placement and I began climbing in the chrome-moly piton days. I use Aliens and this news does not disturb me. An Alien parting at the braze does.

 

so what if it lost some serious holding power due to changed cam angles from a misaligned axle? Might that "disturb" you?

[still_climbin]

That's a pretty big "what if." We can always re-engineer the hardware, but perfect, 100% cam placement in natural rock doesn't exist even for perfect hardware. Aliens by the current design have worked time and again and I doubt that the axil design has suddenly become "bad."

[RuMR]

except that there is a DOCUMENTED run of aliens that had their axle holes misaligned...

 

so yeah, while the design may be A-OK, the fabrication has suddenly (errr maybe not so) gone "bad"...

Edited August 26, 2006 by RuMR

[Wayno]

I would assume these guys were not Hangdogging and that they know what to expect from gear placements. I know the original poster and he is top notch Old School smart. Not some Sport climber with little gear experience. Maysho = Mayfield. Ever heard of him?

[RuMR]

yepperz...and when they say it was an ok placement then it most likely was...

[billcoe]

except that there is a DOCUMENTED run of aliens that had their axle holes misaligned...

 

So true. HealyJ was all over CCH on that one, I think the best they could come up with was stoney silence for some time. Not very inspiring. That was the Orange one, even more interesting is a user on RC.com posted pictures of digitally measuring his new Grey Alien which had cams identical in size to the Yellow. It was a Yellow in everything but sling color.

 

Wondering if the cam hole alignment may have been an issue here. Of course, as long as those guys have been climbing, it could have been a 20 year old piece. Not likely, but it could be.

 

CCH says that they are testing eveything which has left the factory, and this most likely is a pre-test Alien: but if I was Peter Mayfield and had my hands on the piece, I think I'd be measuring the various parts of that pro to see if it conforms to what other Yellow Aliens are.

 

Then at the end of the day, you can say that the placement just failed. We all know they do, even to real experienced people.

 

For all that I was out today plugging mine in with wild abandon and no thought till now that they might let me down. Although I backed up a couple with nuts I noticed, not a common occurance for me.

 

Must be in the back of my mind.

[sk]

muffy, then why put gear in, why not solo? That is about the dumbest thing short of something flyingpig and his girlfriend kevboned would say...

 

Personally, if i place something i expect the fucking thing to work...

 

you are totaly missing my point. and you know it. gear as we know it now was invented at a time when climbing was persued in a different way than it is today. I think that if you want to spend your day hang dogging on active pro then maybe you aught to engienier a kind of pro that is desinged to hand dog on. not pro that was designed in case of a fall... (not because you are going to fall on that crux 4 times before you can wire the move)

 

I have seen a shodily placed yellow alien hold just fine. but that was one of very few falls that piece had ever seen, likely has seen to this day. how many falls had the piece that blew seen? you tell me? was it commen for this climber to push above his climbing limit and tork out so hard he had to place the pice and down climb to rest inorder to make the move through the crux? and if so perhaps he aught to spend more time climbing at his level.

 

we all want pices to hold but the fact of the sport is it is fucking dangerouse. if it were safe it would be hocky

 

think again Rumr you will see there is logic in what i am saying and it is not just muffy logic.

 

we put gear in for the same reason most of us waare a seat belt or a helmet. just in case we fall it gives us better odds than nothing at all. most people do not put on a seat belt and think to them selves "well i have my seat belt on now i am going to ram my car into the next brick wall i see. I will be fine, i have my seat belt on."

 

it gives us a chance to continue to live where otherwise we would have no hope. I have never ever read any garentee on any peice of gear anywehre that has said it will make climbing safe.

 

that philosophy of yours will limit you...ie, you can't work something at your limit if you can't pound on the gear...that is great that you've seen a "shodily placed alien" hold...whatever, the point remains that if i place a piece that i deem to be able to hold a fall (whether its one, two or a hundred) the piece better hold or i got some serious issues with the design. An analogy is when i click my seatbelt in, i expect the seat belt to remain fastened. big duh there.

 

and your thoughts about hang dogging and cams not going together is total bullshit...the guy who INVENTED the cams was one of the first doggers in the valley and his express purpose for inventing friends was to get on cracks that were cutting edge at the time (some still are pretty stiff) and he WORKED the shit out of those routes...you wanna argue some more? Or do you wanna go out and climb some choss pile that you KNOW you aren't gonna fall on and if maybe you do the gear "might" hold?????

 

it must be great to operate in a world running on "muff logic"!

 

it is you know Rumr i love to through shit out there because i learn new things when i state an oppinion. I still think that cams as they are today right now could be improved upon to meet the needs of climbers today. and i still think that you are an engeiner, if you want garenteees invent gear that can make them. until you do that, cams pop from time to time. hopefuly when it does happen you have other peices that will hold. if not you will meet the deck just like every other climber. i don't know a single climber how hasn't seen a perfectly placed cam walk, or change position between the time the leader placed it and the 2nd cleand.... becasue i follow almost exclusivly i think i have a different percpective. there are alot of reasons i don't like to lead and what i have stated here is a big reason. the sharp end is dangerous... even with great gear, perfect placement and knowledge of the climb. shit happens.

 

as far as being limited because of my philosophy about climbing and my lack of 100% trust in the gear. ya you are probably right. If i were to push hard and hang dog every route and work climbes i bet i too could be working into .11 or maybe even .12's if i stopped eating too. but that isn't why i climb. don't get me wrong i hag dog and play on topropes realy offten and i think it is realy fun. i am in no way saying it is wrong to hang dog. i am saying i don't think falling on gear is 100% garenteed safe and i don't think you should expect it to be either.

[counterfeitfake]

There's debate happening here that I don't understand. The alien is intact, right? And there has been no mention that it has any apparent defects, right? So someone explain how the accident could be due to something other than user error.

 

Sure they called the placement "textbook", but Aliens are popular *because* they can go where other gear can't. Sometimes in a shallow or flaring crack, you place your piece and you take your chances.

[RuMR]

supposedly it was not flaring or shallow...

 

face it, aliens are unreliable right now...

[RuMR]

muffy, then why put gear in, why not solo? That is about the dumbest thing short of something flyingpig and his girlfriend kevboned would say...

 

Personally, if i place something i expect the fucking thing to work...

 

you are totaly missing my point. and you know it. gear as we know it now was invented at a time when climbing was persued in a different way than it is today. I think that if you want to spend your day hang dogging on active pro then maybe you aught to engienier a kind of pro that is desinged to hand dog on. not pro that was designed in case of a fall... (not because you are going to fall on that crux 4 times before you can wire the move)

 

I have seen a shodily placed yellow alien hold just fine. but that was one of very few falls that piece had ever seen, likely has seen to this day. how many falls had the piece that blew seen? you tell me? was it commen for this climber to push above his climbing limit and tork out so hard he had to place the pice and down climb to rest inorder to make the move through the crux? and if so perhaps he aught to spend more time climbing at his level.

 

we all want pices to hold but the fact of the sport is it is fucking dangerouse. if it were safe it would be hocky

 

think again Rumr you will see there is logic in what i am saying and it is not just muffy logic.

 

we put gear in for the same reason most of us waare a seat belt or a helmet. just in case we fall it gives us better odds than nothing at all. most people do not put on a seat belt and think to them selves "well i have my seat belt on now i am going to ram my car into the next brick wall i see. I will be fine, i have my seat belt on."

 

it gives us a chance to continue to live where otherwise we would have no hope. I have never ever read any garentee on any peice of gear anywehre that has said it will make climbing safe.

 

that philosophy of yours will limit you...ie, you can't work something at your limit if you can't pound on the gear...that is great that you've seen a "shodily placed alien" hold...whatever, the point remains that if i place a piece that i deem to be able to hold a fall (whether its one, two or a hundred) the piece better hold or i got some serious issues with the design. An analogy is when i click my seatbelt in, i expect the seat belt to remain fastened. big duh there.

 

and your thoughts about hang dogging and cams not going together is total bullshit...the guy who INVENTED the cams was one of the first doggers in the valley and his express purpose for inventing friends was to get on cracks that were cutting edge at the time (some still are pretty stiff) and he WORKED the shit out of those routes...you wanna argue some more? Or do you wanna go out and climb some choss pile that you KNOW you aren't gonna fall on and if maybe you do the gear "might" hold?????

 

it must be great to operate in a world running on "muff logic"!

 

it is you know Rumr i love to through shit out there because i learn new things when i state an oppinion. I still think that cams as they are today right now could be improved upon to meet the needs of climbers today. and i still think that you are an engeiner, if you want garenteees invent gear that can make them. until you do that, cams pop from time to time. hopefuly when it does happen you have other peices that will hold. if not you will meet the deck just like every other climber. i don't know a single climber how hasn't seen a perfectly placed cam walk, or change position between the time the leader placed it and the 2nd cleand.... becasue i follow almost exclusivly i think i have a different percpective. there are alot of reasons i don't like to lead and what i have stated here is a big reason. the sharp end is dangerous... even with great gear, perfect placement and knowledge of the climb. shit happens.

 

as far as being limited because of my philosophy about climbing and my lack of 100% trust in the gear. ya you are probably right. If i were to push hard and hang dog every route and work climbes i bet i too could be working into .11 or maybe even .12's if i stopped eating too. but that isn't why i climb. don't get me wrong i hag dog and play on topropes realy offten and i think it is realy fun. i am in no way saying it is wrong to hang dog. i am saying i don't think falling on gear is 100% garenteed safe and i don't think you should expect it to be either.

 

Oh Muff, what is the color of the sky in your world? Rose is my guess!

[G-spotter]

supposedly it was not flaring or shallow...

 

face it, aliens are unreliable right now...

 

Face it, Aliens have been shitty colorado junk since Day 1 and to pretend they suddenly got worse is to ignore the fact that the people who bought them in the first place are dumbshits who are now being served a heaping plate full of caveat emptor

[iain]

aliens come from mars. wc zeros come from uranus.

[G-spotter]

And Metolius TCUs come from Bend

[counterfeitfake]

supposedly it was not flaring or shallow...

 

face it, aliens are unreliable right now...

 

The alien is intact, right? And there has been no mention that it has any apparent defects, right? So explain how the accident could be due to something other than user error.

 

Or, keep trolling.

[RuMR]

hey fuckbag...i'm not trolling...my point is that IF THE HOLES ARE MISALIGNED YOU CAN PLACE A CAM "PERFECTLY" AND IT IS STILL JUNK...as it is, they have blown their mfr-ing to the point that i think that is what happened...

 

I'm with Dru on this...they have always struck me as junk out of someone's garage...at their initial start they were the only cams that were truly flexible up to their heads, but now they don't even have that going for them...

 

Now, take my bait and chew, sucker...

[chris]

Imagine back when all the climbing gear was handmade, in Y.C.'s warehouse in Ventura. This conversation would not be happening. All of you with expectations that "textbook" placements will hold 100% of the time are blowing sunshine up your skirts. Except the risk that the cable might break, the cam might walk, or the rock may fail.

My only complaint with Aliens is that they are still made by hand (I've heard), and the owner refuses to upgrade to a fully automated manufacturing line, which could minimize and better identify manufacturing flaws.

Rumr, quite being a dickhead.