Yellow Jacket Tower Squabble

[Gary_Yngve]

RuMR:

 

Yes, intermediate students instruct basic students -- alongside experienced climb leaders. Not much different than TAs and professors.

 

Yes, the Mounties are notorious for having, "The good way, the bad way, the Mountie way" and for getting absorbed into minutae. Things are changing for the better, but it takes time.

 

In the olden days I don't think many learned the way you suggest. I think it's an option, but not necessarily overall better or worse.

 

Some folks in the Mounties vehemently disagree with you on your last statement. Folks come in overweight and out of shape, or scared of heights, and they want to try and climb. The Mounties are patient and receptive to others' needs and desires, and I think it's great if someone who might normally never have a chance to climb something can do stuff with the Mounties. And the Mounties have never been about money. The course is dirt-cheap and requires way more time than a week-long AAI course.

[Gary_Yngve]

Rockguy, I would think you'd like the idea of a couple "designated" newbie climbs to take the traffic away from anywhere a self-proclaimed stud like you would want to go.

[John Frieh]

Any putz who can't climb 5.4 and I don't care if it's dry, wet, sandy, snowy whatever needs to spend more time mastering body position and natural climbing movement in a TR situation before getting on the sharp end... single pitch or multi. 5.4 should not be hard.

 

Bolt a 5.4 finish to a 4th class route... why stop there? Let's blast it and put in a wheel chair ramp!

[catbirdseat]

Also, and i hate to sound like a punk so don't take this the wrong way, but some people just should not be climbers...just cuz you got the dollars does not mean you'll make a good climber...

This is a true statement. Not everone is cut out for it. My own son is an example. I don't want him to get interested in climbing. It's not for him.

[BinerBoy]

Once again this Board engages wild speculation immediately following a climbing accident without knowing all of the facts. The YJT victim was an experienced climber. He was not an intermediate student leading one of his first rock climbs. From what I know, this gentleman has spent decades climbing in the Cascades. Let's wait until we know all of the facts before we pass judgment on the victim or the Mountaineers. At the moment, we are guilty of what the pschologists call "attribution bias". We tend to blame the victim in a tragedy because none of us want to believe a similar accident could ever happen to us. That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to unsafe climbing. In the meantime, let's do something more productive like sending some good karma to the victim and his family.

[John Frieh]

I'm not making assumptions about the injured... I hope he gets better.

 

I was directly addressing the bolt proposal.

[octavius]

I'm here to learn. I'm not saying bolt anything. Rockguy's post states many times that it is easy to protect. I'm just asking what that protection would be on that pitch? Seems like people are making a lot of statements like 'no protection is needed it's only 5.4'... why not just answer the question?

 

So what if somebody overprotects a route you would not... I'm not here to get into a pissing match about what I can climb unprotected... I just want to know the best pro to set on that pitch?

 

Or was Rockguy just blowing smoke? I'm too new here to know who is who.

 

Regards

[dan_forester]

Once again this Board engages wild speculation immediately following a climbing accident without knowing all of the facts. The YJT victim was an experienced climber. He was not an intermediate student leading one of his first rock climbs. From what I know, this gentleman has spent decades climbing in the Cascades. Let's wait until we know all of the facts before we pass judgment on the victim or the Mountaineers. At the moment, we are guilty of what the pschologists call "attribution bias". We tend to blame the victim in a tragedy because none of us want to believe a similar accident could ever happen to us. That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to unsafe climbing. In the meantime, let's do something more productive like sending some good karma to the victim and his family.

 

[DirtyHarry]

So what if somebody overprotects a route you would not... I'm not here to get into a pissing match about what I can climb unprotected...

 

If the protection in question is a bolt, than it matters. If its not, than it doesn't.

[octavius]

If the protection in question is a bolt, than it matters. If its not, than it doesn't.

Agreed. So what is the answer to the question about the best pro to place?

[rockguy]

Rockguy, I would think you'd like the idea of a couple "designated" newbie climbs to take the traffic away from anywhere a self-proclaimed stud like you would want to go.

 

Yo dickhead, where in my response did I ever proclaim to be a stud? And as far as “designated” newbie climbs go…Exit 38? Exit 32 perhaps? No need to dumb down and deface easy climbs (or any climb for that matter) like YJT with “chicken” bolts.

 

And as for this quote:

 

Yes, intermediate students instruct basic students -- alongside experienced climb leaders. Not much different than TAs and professors.

 

I call bullshit. First of all, there is a big fucking difference between climb leaders and TAs. A TA’s failure of explanation/supervision results, generally, in less than the loss of his students’ lives. I was on a Mounties climb once where the “leader” placed no less than 20 pieces of protection on the second pitch of Ingalls Peak—took him over an hour to finish the pitch. The “experienced” leader of the group was already on top of the peak—how do you figure that Mr. “experienced” leader was supervising this poor excuse for a climber? This memory still pisses me off today as my wife was the basic student at the end of this “leaders” rope. As a basic student, you sign up for Mountaineers’ climbs believing you’re sharing a rope with a seasoned climber who has the wisdom and experience to keep you safe—many times nothing could be further from the truth. And please don’t start spraying again about what I stud I think I am; I don’t think less of the leader on Ingalls peak because he wasn’t yet a good climber, I’m just pissed that the Mountaineers dubbed him a “leader” when obviously he was not. I commend folks on their drives to become better climbers, but the time to hone those skills is not when my wife’s life is in your hands!

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Rockguy, I would think you'd like the idea of a couple "designated" newbie climbs to take the traffic away from anywhere a self-proclaimed stud like you would want to go.

 

Yo dickhead, where in my response did I ever proclaim to be a stud? And as far as “designated” newbie climbs go…Exit 38? Exit 32 perhaps? No need to dumb down and deface easy climbs (or any climb for that matter) like YJT with “chicken” bolts.

 

And as for this quote:

 

Yes, intermediate students instruct basic students -- alongside experienced climb leaders. Not much different than TAs and professors.

 

I call bullshit. First of all, there is a big fucking difference between climb leaders and TAs. A TA’s failure of explanation/supervision results, generally, in less than the loss of his students’ lives. I was on a Mounties climb once where the “leader” placed no less than 20 pieces of protection on the second pitch of Ingalls Peak—took him over an hour to finish the pitch. The “experienced” leader of the group was already on top of the peak—how do you figure that Mr. “experienced” leader was supervising this poor excuse for a climber? This memory still pisses me off today as my wife was the basic student at the end of this “leaders” rope. As a basic student, you sign up for Mountaineers’ climbs believing you’re sharing a rope with a seasoned climber who has the wisdom and experience to keep you safe—many times nothing could be further from the truth. And please don’t start spraying again about what I stud I think I am; I don’t think less of the leader on Ingalls peak because he wasn’t yet a good climber, I’m just pissed that the Mountaineers dubbed him a “leader” when obviously he was not. I commend folks on their drives to become better climbers, but the time to hone those skills is not when my wife’s life is in your hands!

 

maybe you should have done a little "due diligence" in advance of the climb and asked about the climb leaders - what their prior experience is and their reputation.

[rockguy]

Once again this Board engages wild speculation immediately following a climbing accident without knowing all of the facts. The YJT victim was an experienced climber. He was not an intermediate student leading one of his first rock climbs. From what I know, this gentleman has spent decades climbing in the Cascades. Let's wait until we know all of the facts before we pass judgment on the victim or the Mountaineers. At the moment, we are guilty of what the pschologists call "attribution bias". We tend to blame the victim in a tragedy because none of us want to believe a similar accident could ever happen to us. That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to unsafe climbing. In the meantime, let's do something more productive like sending some good karma to the victim and his family.

 

Define “experienced.” I personally know Mounties who have been climbing 10+ years (and apparently are thus “experienced”) who I’d never ever share a rope with; they’re only still alive because they’ve been lucky.

[Gary_Yngve]

Yo dickhead, where in my response did I ever proclaim to be a stud?

 

Indirectly, through all your dogging of noob idiots who can't climb 5.4.

 

I was on a Mounties climb once where the “leader” placed no less than 20 pieces of protection on the second pitch of Ingalls Peak—took him over an hour to finish the pitch... This memory still pisses me off today as my wife was the basic student at the end of this “leaders” rope.

 

Please explain to me how leading a pitch on Ingalls slowly with lots of pro is endangering the follower.

 

I commend folks on their drives to become better climbers, but the time to hone those skills is not when my wife’s life is in your hands!

 

You signed up for the Mounties and you got what you paid for. Shell out another $1000 and get professionally guided if that's what you want.

[DirtyHarry]

If the protection in question is a bolt, than it matters. If its not, than it doesn't.

Agreed. So what is the answer to the question about the best pro to place?

 

I haven't done the climb, but apparently there is a move or two that is unprotectable. Though, I do not know how exposed the moves are.

[RuMR]

Post deleted by RuMR

[gosolo]

latebloomer, thanks for the update! Sounds serious. I am sending good vibes his way. May he recuperate fully.

 

As for you other guys, dont they have rubber rooms on this site?

[dan_forester]

As a basic student, you sign up for Mountaineers’ climbs believing you’re sharing a rope with a seasoned climber who has the wisdom and experience to keep you safe—many times nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Learning how to rely upon yourself for your own safety is a pretty fundamental skill in mountaineering...there's nothing like being tied in with someone who doesn't know what he's doing to teach you that lesson.

 

not that I always know what I'm doing...

[RuMR]

Once again this Board engages wild speculation immediately following a climbing accident without knowing all of the facts. The YJT victim was an experienced climber. He was not an intermediate student leading one of his first rock climbs. From what I know, this gentleman has spent decades climbing in the Cascades. Let's wait until we know all of the facts before we pass judgment on the victim or the Mountaineers. At the moment, we are guilty of what the pschologists call "attribution bias". We tend to blame the victim in a tragedy because none of us want to believe a similar accident could ever happen to us. That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to unsafe climbing. In the meantime, let's do something more productive like sending some good karma to the victim and his family.

 

Define “experienced.” I personally know Mounties who have been climbing 10+ years (and apparently are thus “experienced”) who I’d never ever share a rope with; they’re only still alive because they’ve been lucky.

dude...i agree with most of your points but you are getting out of line on this post...back the hell off...

[rockguy]

Rockguy, I would think you'd like the idea of a couple "designated" newbie climbs to take the traffic away from anywhere a self-proclaimed stud like you would want to go.

 

Yo dickhead, where in my response did I ever proclaim to be a stud? And as far as “designated” newbie climbs go…Exit 38? Exit 32 perhaps? No need to dumb down and deface easy climbs (or any climb for that matter) like YJT with “chicken” bolts.

 

And as for this quote:

 

Yes, intermediate students instruct basic students -- alongside experienced climb leaders. Not much different than TAs and professors.

 

I call bullshit. First of all, there is a big fucking difference between climb leaders and TAs. A TA’s failure of explanation/supervision results, generally, in less than the loss of his students’ lives. I was on a Mounties climb once where the “leader” placed no less than 20 pieces of protection on the second pitch of Ingalls Peak—took him over an hour to finish the pitch. The “experienced” leader of the group was already on top of the peak—how do you figure that Mr. “experienced” leader was supervising this poor excuse for a climber? This memory still pisses me off today as my wife was the basic student at the end of this “leaders” rope. As a basic student, you sign up for Mountaineers’ climbs believing you’re sharing a rope with a seasoned climber who has the wisdom and experience to keep you safe—many times nothing could be further from the truth. And please don’t start spraying again about what I stud I think I am; I don’t think less of the leader on Ingalls peak because he wasn’t yet a good climber, I’m just pissed that the Mountaineers dubbed him a “leader” when obviously he was not. I commend folks on their drives to become better climbers, but the time to hone those skills is not when my wife’s life is in your hands!

 

maybe you should have done a little "due diligence" in advance of the climb and asked about the climb leaders - what their prior experience is and their reputation.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2006 by iceguy

[KaskadskyjKozak]

the whole point is that you may get a jimwickwire or you might get a KK...you do the math

 

that's total bullshit. and there's no difference between a noob deciding whether to climb behind a mountie he knows nothing about or hooking up with random CC-com people he knows nothing about either.

 

it's up to anyone taking up this sport to do due diligence in picking climbing partners

 

and as for the follower putting their life in the hands of the "inexperienced leader" - that cuts two ways - the leader is putting their life in the hands of the inexperienced follower - a much more dangerous proposition.

 

and as for your typical asshole comments, go yourself, dickhead.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

open your mouth and say you are uncomfortable and want a rope.

Edited May 23, 2006 by iceguy

[klenke]

Will some mod please move this thread to the Ego Stroker's Forum? Thanks.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Off_White

[rockguy]

Once again this Board engages wild speculation immediately following a climbing accident without knowing all of the facts. The YJT victim was an experienced climber. He was not an intermediate student leading one of his first rock climbs. From what I know, this gentleman has spent decades climbing in the Cascades. Let's wait until we know all of the facts before we pass judgment on the victim or the Mountaineers. At the moment, we are guilty of what the pschologists call "attribution bias". We tend to blame the victim in a tragedy because none of us want to believe a similar accident could ever happen to us. That's exactly the kind of thinking that leads to unsafe climbing. In the meantime, let's do something more productive like sending some good karma to the victim and his family.

 

Define “experienced.” I personally know Mounties who have been climbing 10+ years (and apparently are thus “experienced”) who I’d never ever share a rope with; they’re only still alive because they’ve been lucky.

dude...i agree with most of your points but you are getting out of line on this post...back the hell off...

 

Sorry, just a lot of bad Mountie memories; I’ve just had to rescue too many of them who were “experienced.” Have I had to rescue other climbers as well? Sure. But I’ve rescued far more Mounties than non-Mounties. In my opinion they’re a very dangerous, careless organization. There’s a lot of nice people in the Mountaineers, but being “nice” does not necessarily qualify you to be a climber or to lead people climbing. All right, I'll back off.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Off_White

[RuMR]

Post deleted by RuMR