Trust and your climbing partners (accidents)

[octavius]

Anybody ever been outright dropped to the deck by their belay partner while being lowered after a climb?

 

I had a disturbing experience while gym climbing last week. I was climbing at one of the Seattle indoor rock gyms, with a guy that I wound up with because we are both members of a group that trains together twice weekly at said gym... my usual friends were not available that night, but this guy seemed pretty competent... he is a good climber anyway (and a climb leader with a local club), and it's pretty common for members of this group to rotate through the other members as climbing partners.

 

Anyway, I did a route, and was at the top ready to be lowered. The gym uses all GriGris for top rope climbing. The route was about 30 feet high. After being lowered a few feet I felt a sudden increase in acceleration which I thought was just an issue with the belayer opening the GriGri too far... and that he'd notice and let it close. Next thing I know, I'm freefalling (as if the rope broke) at full speed/acceleration, and I deck out… f*cking hard, on the gym's gravel floor.

 

I'm in instant daze as my brain tries to process what just happened, and I realize that I'm trying to get up, but I can't. A couple of gym staffers are with me in a matter of seconds, performing the MOFA style 7 steps, and I hear somebody say "call 911". I hear the guy that was belaying me say "oh man... I left the handle open too long". My daze fades a bit and I realize I'm laying in gravel, on my back, on my bulky chalk bag and harness, and I just want to get up... my mind thinking the bulky bag is what is causing the pain in my lower back. But I can't get up, and the staffers are telling me not to move, and holding my head and neck straight. They say they've called 911 and I should just relax. I'm getting very hot from the adrenaline pumping through my system.

 

My mind is racing... what the f*ck just happened? Climbing is risky... this was an accident that can happen... part of the sport…; but it wasn't due to anything I did... I was just fricken dropped while being lowered! ...by somebody that apparently wasn't paying attention! Am I hurt? I have 3 outdoor climbs coming up in the next 2 weeks... can I still do them? I’m feeling an odd combination of fear, anger, and loss… I had been looking forward to these upcomming outdoor climbs for over a month.

 

The fire department EMTs arrive, more checking, pulse, BP, can I feel my feet, etc. They strap me into a backboard and transport me to an ER. Today, 7 days later, I'm recovering. Small chip in a vertebrae, pretty stiff back and neck for a few days that is getting better, and a new awareness afound picking my climbing & belay partners… even in a gym.

 

A number of people saw parts of this accident, but nobody saw the entire thing. My belayer said the fall was 12 feet, though if he wasn't paying attention I'm not sure how he even knows. My neighbor happened to see much of it... the before and after anyway... and said there was very little time between when I was at the top of the route, and when he heard the impact and looked over again. I found a couple of days later that the left cheek of my new climbing pants had 4 holes in them... from the gravel at the base of the route. That gravel is round-ish. I'm more than a bit curious what kind of force is required for round gravel to put holes in climbing pants.

 

The physical wounds are heeling. The mental part is different though. I'm thinking I will never climb now with somebody I don't know, and trust, 100%... even in a gym. Perhaps this is knowledge that most experienced climbers already have (I’ve only been in the sport for a year)... maybe this is just a reaction to something that was pretty scary. You can't really know another person 100%; you can't know when they might have a brain fart... Oh, and GriGris (even when setup correctly) require more competence than I realized to operate, on the lowering portion anyway.

 

I'm really curious to hear other stories out there, and how they compare or relate. How long did it take to learn to trust any new climbing partners afterwards?

 

Regards,

Octavius

[olyclimber]

damn, that sucks. so the accident was purely belayer error, or were there other contributing factors?

[matt_m]

Most peopel think GriGris are great - and for the belaying part they are. almost ALL problems with grigris occur in the LOWERING stage - that's what I teach at least. Here's to a speedy recovery

[G-spotter]

Was the guy you were climbing with named Adrian McNair by any chance?

[genepires]

Sorry to hear of your accident. As a recent falling victim (but it was my fault) I can feel your pain. I have similar injuries.

Since the fault was all mine though, I think it will be easier to deal with than your case though. Easier to blame myself than others.

Your incident is something we should all think about.

 

hope you get better soon,

[octavius]

No other circumstances... unless you consider the chance the guy was distracted by cute coeds... that is always a risk in these gyms.

 

As to names, I'm not interested in outing the guy (it wasn't Adrian). I think it was just a mistake. I'm more interested in the psychology of trusting new climbing partners again.

Edited May 11, 2006 by octavius

[catbirdseat]

I always insist that people use two hands when they are lowering me. This is because sometimes a twist or hockle will run into the brake hand and cause problems. If you have two hands on the rope one hand can fix the twist while the other maintains a firm grip. With GriGris, obviously, one hand is on the lever leaving only one hand for the rope.

 

At Vertical World where they require you to use GriGris, they provide carabiners with which to redirect the rope for a smoother lower. Was your belayer using one?

[still_climbin]

At a Tri Cities gym the staff now allows wall users with a certain level of experience to use ATC's because all of their safety problems have come from lowering with GriGris. Hope you're back in the saddle soon.

[olyclimber]

i think you have the right attitude about it octavius, people screw up, and in this case it landed you in the hospital. it comes down to how do you choose your partners. i think everyone has their own way of going about it, based on the amount of risk they are willing to take on, and their confidence in their own ability (though obviously your own ability has nothing to do with getting lowered). I know I wouldn't ask someone to go climbing with me till I felt pretty comfortable about their track record, and I also just try to climb with people who are more experienced than I (easy for me to do )...but in this case it sounds like the person was experienced . i suppose you're going to end up being more selective about partners, and depending on how much you really want to get back out there will drive the risk you're willing to take in climbing with someone you don't know. ya, it may mean you end up climbing less, but at least you'll live through it. luckily for me I haven't had to deal with a situation like this before, I wish you the best in getting through it and healing up.

[archenemy]

Sorry to hear about your fall.

 

I had an early negative experience climbing with someone I didn't know. I only climb outside, and so I was pretty nervous and felt trapped (I'd gotten up a couple pitches and the only way down was up). I had never climbed with someone I didn't know before that day, and since that day I don't climb with anyone I don't know unless I am leading something that I know I can do without falling (barring the unexpected). And I don't let anyone lower me---I rap or walk off no matter how foolish it seems to the other person.

The downside: I have very few climbing partners.

The upside: I haven't been dropped and I feel like I have some measure of control over my safety.

The trade off is worth it for me; but then, I can be a nervous nelly sometimes.

[knotzen]

I haven't had anyone totally drop me, but I've climbed with a couple of people who thought it was funny to lower you very fast, and you hit the ground and fall on your butt.

 

It *feels* like freefalling, and your body and mind can't quickly reconcile what's going on, and it pisses the hot, living shit out of me.

 

They always snicker, like it's a great joke. Assholes.

 

I don't climb with people who treat belaying like something to have fun with. In fact, one of them was an ex--says something, eh.

[billcoe]

 

As to names, I'm not interested in outing the guy (it wasn't Adrian). I think it was just a mistake. I'm more interested in the psychology of trusting new climbing partners again.

 

I'd be interested in learning the persons name. I would never want to climb with them. It would help my psychology. Your story made my heart palpitate.

_____________________________________________________

 

Folks made fun of me the other day for posting this in the alpiners Anonomyus thread, but swear to God, there is nothing more important than your belaying skills, I don't give a rats ass how hard you can climb, if you can't belay then piss off, and that includes the dumbass who nearly killed you through operator error. Larry DeAngelo still gives hip belays and has never dropped a climber after 30+ years. It's called skill. The GriGri had nothing to do with your fall. It was 100 percent belayer error, 100 percent avoidable. I believe 100 percent that person should quit climbing right now. NOW!

_________________________________________________________

 

 

Glad your OK dude. Here's the post that drew some ridicule.

-

Bill's extra long request for good partners

 

"Hi all:

 

Sunshine, finally. Looking forward to this.

 

Short technical note: I figure that posting my rant thing here for everybody, just once, might be better than PMing everyone. As it’s a new year, with new folks, I want to restate my terms and conditions. Sorry if you heard this before. I don’t know the skill levels of people tomorrow so I’ll repeat.

 

I only have 1 major issue. Safety. As such, I give and expect 100 percent perfect belays. 100 percent perfect means: good communication, ground checks for every climber/belayer, and brake hand on the rope ground to ground round trip for any climber off the deck who thinks they are on, or should be on, belay. If you've ever seen a person dropped by their belayer, you witnessed a less than perfect belay. Might have been a 99 percenter, hard to say, but it was less than 100 percent.

 

1 really don't give a rats ass if you can outclimb me, welcome to a huge club if like most people you can. I don't care. I don't want to hear anyone say it's just top roping either. I choose to be safe and as part of that refuse to climb with anyone who expects to do less. If you don’t like what I’m saying here, don’t show up. Last year the rescue crews were called out for 10 cliff incidents, most in the area we will be in. Every Fucking one of which was avoidable, except that somebody chose to not be safe. Don’t think this can’t or won’t happen to you. I once carried out one of the most experienced Oregon climbers who had just finished the easy White Rabbit 5.3 down climb and while turning on relatively flat ground, banana-peeled on the wet mud and seriously pitched. The hospital stay was like a month or so with the broken ribs, punctured lungs, surgery to remove the spleen and permanent pins added to the wrist a week into the stay with more surgery. No one is immune and it’s a choice we can make. I free solo out here sometimes and it always shocks and surprised that rare person who sees me toping out - I’m fine with you doing so too, best not this time of year with this group please, let’s let it dry out and clean off some.

 

I don’t want to teach belays either. If you don’t have your Sh*T together, don’t come out expecting that somebody will help you to get it together. Make arrangements with somebody else some other time, I’d rather solo. I like to get set up efficiently and rapidly to get maximum time to get pumped. That might mean running up 3 laps in a row without untying and/or down climbing. Given the time constraints, it’s not a good time to be dogging a route unless you have a belayer who’s toasted out and done in, and nobody is standing at the base: rock shoes on foot tapping hoping for another shot before dark. You want to smoke a bowl or drink some beers, pretty common and fine by me, stay in control and don’t get sparks on my rope or (more) glass on the ground is all I've ever asked.

 

If you haven’t choked and blown spit on your screen due to my arrogance thus far, I’m driving from Beaverton and should be there @6 pm. Directions to Silver Bullet are thus: as John said: After 3 speed bumps the road bends slightly right and passes a big tan dome building. Park past the big tan dome building, @ 100 years before the hard right turn, and cross the road to the north into the woods and walk c. 100’ east paralleling the road. You should immediately pass a tunnel on your right that goes underneath the road, @ 20 steps further there is a trail that branches left, head left out to the cliff edge (another 25 feet or so) and you should be able to gaze down to some anchors below. (Going straight is a very safe and gentle walk to the bottom. You could curve around and meet up with folks below if you don't want to jump on the fixed line).

 

Communication from the top to the bottom is very difficult. There is some white water rapids or something further below, and the continued roaring sound never abates and is very difficult to overcome. The hand signal for advising a belayer that you are over the edge, tied in safe and can be taken off belay is a wave of the hand for instance. Planning the hand signals in advance is a good idea. If my finger points down and makes a circular motion after I've topped out, that means please lower me. A fist means stop. Might want to clean some crap off so your trip up is cleaner, or perhaps reclimb a section that felt particularly great or difficult.

 

As there is plenty of slippery wet mud, leaves and winter moss buildup, I suggest we tie off a fir and rap to the ledge below, set up the climbs and then rap the same line the rest of the way down. I rarely do this at this location, but this would be the time to rap IMO. It might be dry, but probably not. I have beater rope and don’t mind getting sap on it. You show up and see a light blue Maxim tied to a fir, feel free to rap on it, don’t ask permission. Side note: out here it's common to see a single party have 2, 3 or 4 climbs set up, tradition is that you can climb on their ropes. Nice to ask first.

 

If you feel insecure on a single line rap and want a fireman’s belay, glad to do it, flip the rope around till some enquiring person at the base walks over below you and looks up, point or shout and we’ll pull on it to slow you down if you have a crappy rap device and/or hate single rope raps. Tossing an identical sized 2nd carabiner in most atc devices helps slow you down too.

 

As this had been a active rock quarry, many of the anchors are into large blocks. We had a winter with some freezing; I always, but especially now, like to back up all the anchors with a backup rope tied solid to a fir or a rock further back. I have plenty of sections of retired ropes to do this. Bring your climbing ropes and personal gear, some lockers and such if you have it. Should be plenty of gear and ropes if you don’t own that stuff, so no worries.

 

If you want to warm up bouldering, you might drive to the top and jump on some of the short man-made stuff up there. It's pretty good.

 

Have fun, be safe, and see you tomorrow.

 

PS, 2-4 is a great number of folks, I usually bag off if I see lots of cars and it's a big group, please don't be offended if that occurs. It's me, not you.

 

Any of you last years or before dudes gonna show? Ivan, Paul, B-rock, Ron, Dan, Pete, Roberto, Kirby, T?"

___________________________________________________________

 

Some of my lack of judgement problem things have involved climbing with inexperienced people because I wanted to get out. I watch it a lot closer now.

 

Good luck with the mind dude, be glad you didn't land on a pile of rocks.

[octavius]

 

Yep, I always use two hands when I'm lowering somebody (sans GriGri)... for those very reasons.

 

At Vertical World where they require you to use GriGris, they provide carabiners with which to redirect the rope for a smoother lower. Was your belayer using one?

 

Good question. Nope, the belayer was not using the extra carabiner. I've since learned that lots of people don't use that 'biner. The way gym staff manager explained it to me is that the GriGri was not designed to be used with the extra 'biner, so people that leanred to use them out in the field tend to not use them.

 

I always use it, and feel it provides for better friction on the lower. I used to think people that didn't use them were just demonstrating that they were hotshots... but I hadn't thought about the fact that people that learned to use the GriGri outside of the gym might be more acustomed to not using that extra 'biner.

 

The gym manager said he has since played around with using the extra 'biner, and might suggest it to everybody.

[archenemy]

I don't climb with people who treat belaying like something to have fun with. In fact, one of them was an ex--says something, eh.

That you pick losers to date?

I can relate to that.

[catbirdseat]

I once went climbing with OlympicMtnBoy whom I did know at the time. He did something that I thought was pretty smart. He said, "I'm going to climb up no higher than 10 ft and I'm going to jump off". He did, and being satisfied with my catch, proceeded to lead the pitch.

 

So I sometimes do that with people I don't know, just to check out their belay. If they were to refuse then I wouldn't climb with them.

[archenemy]

That is smart. I've had a partner do that to me w/o warning just to test me. Surprised me, but it was clever.

Haven't dropped anyone yet. But the summer is just starting!

[olyclimber]

because you would be cratered and with a broken leg!

[knotzen]

I don't climb with people who treat belaying like something to have fun with. In fact, one of them was an ex--says something, eh.

That you pick losers to date?

I can relate to that.

 

Huh. We have something in common. Who woulda thunk.

 

And I *meant* it shows what I do to a guy who messes with me.

Edited May 11, 2006 by knotzen

[Weekend_Climberz]

I once went climbing with OlympicMtnBoy whom I did know at the time. He did something that I thought was pretty smart. He said, "I'm going to climb up no higher than 10 ft and I'm going to jump off". He did, and being satisfied with my catch, proceeded to lead the pitch.

 

So I sometimes do that with people I don't know, just to check out their belay. If they were to refuse then I wouldn't climb with them.

 

 

I thought that leader fall was not intentional. Now I know your true motives. Cheers to me for passing the test.

 

You CBS

[Weekend_Climberz]

Wow! That rhymed.

 

I'm a poet and I didn't no it.

[catbirdseat]

Dude, if you hadn't made that catch...well it wouldn't have been pretty. I wasn't planning on falling.

[hemp22]

Hey man, that story is indeed a scary one, and it sucks that it had to happen. Glad to hear that you're getting better.

 

I had a similar thing happen once, although it was fortunately not as severe.

I was climbing outside with a guy that I knew from a gym, but wasn't normally a partner of mine. I had climbed with him a couple times before, but it later occurred to me that he had never actually belayed me before this incident (I was either belaying him, or we were in a larger group and other people belayed me).

Anyway, I was on lead on a route, and I was at the crux, that was well-protected by a bolt at about my waist level. There was maybe about 2 feet of rope between my harness & the lower biner of the draw. I felt secure going through the moves but then had a foot grease off unexpectedly, so I came off. Before I knew it, I was about 40 feet below that bolt, hanging in my harness about 5 feet off the deck. No broken bones, but I had some pretty nasty rope burn & rock rash that kept me off the rock for a couple weeks (there was a slabby section below the part of the climb that I was at). So, I asked "dude, how did I get so low? the bolt was right at my waist." and his response was something like "oh, yeah, i didn't quite have my brake hand on the rope tight enough".

 

Anyway, that wasn't as bad as your experience, but for me, the first decision was simple: I'll never climb with that guy again.

But the longer, more difficult psychological part is that it freaked me out about my belayers paying attention to me, so I've been a lot more anal about making sure my belayer is paying attention. I still feel comfortable letting my regular climbing partners belay me any time, but I have no problem yelling down at them to pay attention if I think they're in a situation where they could get distracted (i.e. crowded crag or cute co-eds).

[archenemy]

I don't climb with people who treat belaying like something to have fun with. In fact, one of them was an ex--says something, eh.

That you pick losers to date?

I can relate to that.

 

Huh. We have something in common. Who woulda thunk.

 

And I *meant* it shows what I do to a guy who messes with me.

I meant I seem to date guys who like to have me around for amusement purposes.

But I think I should reiterate (before we climb together) that I have never dropped anyone I had on the end of the rope. Ever.

[knotzen]

I don't climb with people who treat belaying like something to have fun with. In fact, one of them was an ex--says something, eh.

That you pick losers to date?

I can relate to that.

 

Huh. We have something in common. Who woulda thunk.

 

And I *meant* it shows what I do to a guy who messes with me.

I meant I seem to date guys who like to have me around for amusement purposes.

 

What I meant was...oh never mind.

 

Oops! Toto, we're not in Spray anymore. Zip the lip.

 

Carry on, then.

[mountainmatt]

Anybody ever been outright dropped to the deck by their belay partner while being lowered after a climb?

 

That is a bad story, and I had something similar happen to me when I was starting to climb in Colorado.

 

I got to the top of a 30 foot climb, looked back at the belayer and checked that they were ready for me to decend verbally. She said she had me, I leaned back and started to walk, which turned into a run until I hit the ground. I didn't move for a while to let the adrenaline settle. I ended up walking away with a limp (really bruised hip and thigh). Strangely enough, I had also worn my helmet which likely saved me from a concussion. Luckily I hit the the dirt, 2 feet to the left and I would have hit a pointy rock and it would have been a different story all together. When I asked the girl what had happened, she told me that the rope burned her a little, so she let go. Although I still climb 14 years later, I still grab the other rope when being lowered off unconsciously.