By the way, how are your taxes

[Jim]

NY Times April 5

 

The analysis found the following:

 

¶Among taxpayers with incomes greater than $10 million, the amount by which their investment tax bill was reduced averaged about $500,000 in 2003, and total tax savings, which included the two Bush tax cuts on compensation, nearly doubled, to slightly more than $1 million.

 

¶These taxpayers, whose average income was $26 million, paid about the same share of their income in income taxes as those making $200,000 to $500,000 because of the lowered rates on investment income.

 

¶Americans with annual incomes of $1 million or more, about one-tenth of 1 percent all taxpayers, reaped 43 percent of all the savings on investment taxes in 2003. The savings for these taxpayers averaged about $41,400 each. By comparison, these same Americans received less than 10 percent of the savings from the other Bush tax cuts, which applied primarily to wages, though that share is expected to grow in coming years.

 

¶The savings from the investment tax cuts are expected to be larger in subsequent years because of gains in the stock market.

Those making less than $50,000 saved an average of $10 more because of the investment tax cuts.

[archenemy]

My taxes are painful. And I don't fit into any of the catagories above. I am going to go cry now.

[StickBoy]

If you can't change the system, try making profit from it. Invest more and I'm sure that might put a smile on your face come tax time.

-Mike

[Squid]

translates as:

 

I've got mine, fuck you.

[JayB]

Tax revenues are up though, Jim, and the same newspaper had this to say about it:

 

"The big surprise has been in tax revenue, which is running nearly 15 percent higher than in 2004. Corporate tax revenue has soared about 40 percent, after languishing for four years, and individual tax revenue is up as well.

 

Most of the increase in individual tax receipts appears to have come from higher stock market gains and the business income of relatively wealthy taxpayers."

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Thank the class of 1994 for the big child tax credit. $1000 / kid!

[archenemy]

If you can't change the system, try making profit from it. Invest more and I'm sure that might put a smile on your face come tax time.

-Mike

Are you a complete idiot? What do you think they tax--your profits. Maybe you are smiling b/c your investments equaled a loss, and therefore you aren't paying any taxes. Or maybe you are 12.

[snowclimber]

Did the article mention that the top 10% of income earners pay two-thirds of the federal income tax, or that the top 50% pay over 96%? Gosh, could that be why the absolute dollar savings for higher income earners are larger . . .?

[Jim]

Tax revenues are up though, Jim, and the same newspaper had this to say about it:

 

"The big surprise has been in tax revenue, which is running nearly 15 percent higher than in 2004. Corporate tax revenue has soared about 40 percent, after languishing for four years, and individual tax revenue is up as well.

 

Most of the increase in individual tax receipts appears to have come from higher stock market gains and the business income of relatively wealthy taxpayers."

 

No duh. Has nothing to do with any policy shift, simply we're finally pulling out of a prolonged economic slump. Oh I know, the trickle down theory.

 

There's really no refuting the facts. Total federal personal taxes paid on wages and other earnings, including income, SS, and Medicare averages 23.4%. In contrast tax on personal investment income averages 9.6%. Who do you think benefits from this?

 

I know. When you start dividing up the population into those quintiles the upper incomes pay more of the total tax collected. Shit, they should, since they make even higer proportions from thier investment income. 1% of the US populations holds 40% of the wealth in the country, and the trend is upward. Isn't there a time when policies tilted towards the ultra rich are excessive? 1% owning 75% of the wealth - is that bad? Most economists would say yes, that advancing a plurocracy is not in the national interest.

 

88% of collected taxes come from federal personal taxes. The contribution of investment and corporate taxes has been shrinking for decades. Funny how the economy seemed to work just fine without the huge tax breaks for the ultra rich.

 

It also cracks me up that most of the right wing is behind this. The Bushie tax cuts, as noted above, only benefited a very small (upper 3%) of the population. What the heck are the masses getting out of it? So someone earning just over $200k a year pays the same tax as someone earning several million a year? I'm sure the National Review has some other talking points you can harvest regarding this.

Edited April 6, 2006 by Jim

[StickBoy]

translates as:

 

I've got mine, fuck you.

Are you a complete idiot? What do you think they tax--your profits. Maybe you are smiling b/c your investments equaled a loss, and therefore you aren't paying any taxes. Or maybe you are 12.

 

 

Wow. You guys are passionate now aren't you? I've got mine, so F-You. I believe you read into that incorrectly. Try looking at it from a different context. You also have the ability to benifit from the tax cuts, but do you? If not, then why not. Maybe learn how to work the system for your gain if your so against THE MAN. As for me being an idiot. Do you know me? If so, try introducing yourself to me again so I'll remember who you are. Yeah they tax my profits, but portfolio income is taxed at a lower rate than an average employee. I've been spending time trying to learn how to pay as little in taxes as I can. My wife and I started a network marketing business so all of our expenses (cellphones,driving,dining out ect.) are writen off against our earned income. We are in the process of setting it up as a corporation now. When that is done, we will be able to spend the income from our business pretaxed and then get taxed on whatever is left. This is what I mean by profitting from the system. Read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert Kiyosaki. That might help to change your context enough to stop blaming the rich and instead focus on what you can do to help yourself.

-Mike

[StickBoy]

How the system works....

 

A good math lesson:

by: David R. Kamerschen, Ph. D

 

Sometimes politicians, journalists and the liberal

left exclaim; "It's just a tax cut for the rich!" and

it is just accepted to be fact.

 

But what does that really mean?

 

Just in case you are not completely clear on this

issue, I hope the following will help. Please read

it carefully.

 

Let's put tax cuts in terms everyone can understand.

 

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for dinner

and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

 

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go

something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

 

So, that's what they decided to do.

 

The ten men ate dinner in the restaurant every day

and seemed quite happy with the arrangement,

until one day, the owner threw them a curve.

 

"Since you are all such good customers," he said,

"I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by

$20." Dinner for the ten now cost just $80.

 

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we

pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected.

They would still eat for free. But what about the

other six men - the paying customers? How could

they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would

get his 'fair share?'

 

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if

they subtracted that from everybody's share, then

the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up

being paid to eat their meal.

 

So, the restaurant owner suggested that it would

be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the

same amount, and he proceeded to work out the

amounts each should pay.

 

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

 

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first

four continued to eat for free. But once outside the restaurant,

the men began to compare their savings.

 

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He

pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

 

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only

saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times

more than me!"

 

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why

should he get $10 back when I got only two?

The wealthy get all the breaks!"

 

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison.

"We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits

the poor!"

 

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

 

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for dinner,

so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it

came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.

They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the

bill!

 

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is

how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the

most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for

being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they

might start eating overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat

friendlier.

 

David R. Kamerschen, Ph. D

Professor of Economics

University of Georgia

[ivan]

sounds like the nine shoulda taken the 10th's wallet when they were done kicking the shit outta him!

[Jim]

translates as:

 

I've got mine, fuck you.

Are you a complete idiot? What do you think they tax--your profits. Maybe you are smiling b/c your investments equaled a loss, and therefore you aren't paying any taxes. Or maybe you are 12.

 

 

Wow. You guys are passionate now aren't you? I've got mine, so F-You. I believe you read into that incorrectly. Try looking at it from a different context. You also have the ability to benifit from the tax cuts, but do you? If not, then why not. Maybe learn how to work the system for your gain if your so against THE MAN. As for me being an idiot. Do you know me? If so, try introducing yourself to me again so I'll remember who you are. -Mike

 

And the point is?

[olyclimber]

They say music is the food of love

Let's see if you're hungry enough

Take a bite, take another, just like a good boy would

Get a sweet thing on the side

Home cooking, homicide

Side order could be your daughter, Finger lickin' good

 

Come on baby, eat the rich

Put the bite on that son of a bitch

Don't mess around, don't you give me no switch

C'mon baby, eat the rich

C'mon baby eat the rich

 

Sitting here in the restaurant

Tell the waiter just what you want

Is that the meat you wanted to eat?

How would you ever know?

Hash browns and bacon strips

I like the way that you lick your lips

No foolin' I can see you droolin'

Feel the hunger grow

 

Chorus

 

Eat you baby, you eat me

Eat two baby, get one free

Shetland pony, or extra pepperoni

Just pick up the phone

Eat Greek or eat Chinese

Eat salad or scarf up grease

You're on the shelf you eat yourself

Come on and bite my bone

 

Repeat chorus

Sitting there in your hired tuxedo

You want to see my bacon torpedo

[Jim]

Oh-oh. music thread

[archenemy]

Nodder on your life.

[olyclimber]

there are a lot of recipes for rich people out there

[Squid]

I prefer over-easy.

[willstrickland]

I got my direct deposit refund on 1/18. Got an audit letter for the 2004 tax year on 1/21. Got the audit cleared up a couple of weeks ago with a "sorry, we f'ed up" from the IRS.

 

JayB, re: increased tax receipts. What effect did the one-time repatriation at lower rates for corps deal have on fed receipts, and what effect did elevated real estate values/property taxes from the housing bubble/appraisal fraud have on local receipts? Not an insubstantial effect I would reckon. My point is, the oft asserted claim that our "strong economy" is responsible is an incomplete story at best and a lie at worst. Repatriation at lower rates triggered somewhere in the neighborhood of hundreds of billions of extra income taxed at the one time lower rates if I understand correctly.

[archenemy]

there are a lot of recipes for rich people out there

I suggest watching "Eat the Rich" with Lemmy for fresh new ideas.

[StickBoy]

And the point is?

 

Look. I think taxes are bunk in general but I know they're not going away until there's an upheaval ala Boston Tea Party. So in the meantime until people get pissed off enough to revolt, protect your own income utilizing the tax code. Do whatever you can to shelter your money from the greedy gov't. If you don't like something, find a way to fight it. Don't try to bash me because I have a different point of view. Doesn't solve anything.

[StickBoy]

P.S. I'm a construction worker so I'm getting the crap taxed out of me and I'm not making a whole lot of income from investments, but I realize that I can feel sorry for the fact that I'm not a Rockefeller or I can do something to change my position.

-Mike

[Squid]

Hey Mike-

 

No problem with your stance of self-reliance, that's awesome.

 

In your rush to be all that you can be, don't forget that the Bushco combination of taxcuts for the rich and elimination of social programs has increased the gap between rich and poor, while at the same time shrinking the middle class. All this means is that the folks who are benefit from tax cuts on capital gains are generally not the ones most in need of help (not to say that we all wouldn't appreciate more money).

 

In that context, your blithe suggestion of 'invest more' sounds a little like Marie Antoinettte advising the masses to eat cake.

 

And never get your econ advice from spamming emails:

 

http://www.arches.uga.edu/~davidk/

[StickBoy]

I agree that the tax cuts for the rich are having dire consequences for the poor. My mom and my brother are on the extreme lower end of the economic scale so I see first hand how the elimination of social programs and how our tax system screws people like this. However, if your typing away on a climbing forum, I would assume that you have some sort of expendible income so I would try to impress upon everyone the need to make sure you take care of yourself and not rely on the gov't for any of your needs. A classic example would be hurricane Katrina. An up and comer will be Medicare and Social Security (unless the monetize these liabilities). When I go climbing, my partner has my life in his/her hands and unless I have complete trust in that person or myself, I don't put myself on the line. Same is true here. I don't trust the gov't so I must put complete trust in myself and do what I need to do to protect myself and my family. I agree that my suggestion to "invest more" may have sounded blithe, however the people on this site, I would assume, have the means to take advantage in some part on the tax cuts and to take care of their own. In the case of my family, they don't, so I feel for them. Thanks for the info on David K. Didn't know that. On an endnote I'm middle class and proud. However I know I'm being attacked on all fronts so now it's time to take an offensive position. For me now, I know I must try to expand my means or become a slave. If I become a slave, it's harder to make changes.

-Mike

[LUCKY]

YO Trad geek... Dude your all stirred up in the am sat morning on this tax thing, chill out, I know this weather sucks, and I would be really bummed if I had not worked today, cause my toe is broke and I can't climb..the good think is if I was going to pick a year to be busted this would be it...what a sucky coulee season , a couple more weeks and I will pull'n down again, lets get out

 

LUCKY