JosephH Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 I have a defect dimple. Where did you get yours? Quote
archenemy Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 In my DNA. Seems to be attached to the X chromosomes. Quote
JosephH Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 Archenemy, Sorry, trying to help sort through this issue across three sites is making me a bit terse - but could we please skip the humor posts on this one. Quote
John Frieh Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 rockgirl77- the RC.com threads discuss this but REI is accepting returns on Aliens right now, no questions asked, for any bought or manufactured in 2005. you can tell what month/year the alien was made by looking at the under side of the trigger. It is stamped there. Isn't it true some don't have this stamp... especially the older ones? Quote
Dechristo Posted January 12, 2006 Posted January 12, 2006 I would never trust my life to a product with an unknown production methodology and a history of failure. You climb without partners, eh? Quote
hemp22 Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 from CCH, posted on RC.com: Colorado Custom Hardware, (CCH) has recently completed an investigation and extensive testing to identify and isolate safety issues concerning the brazing on CCH Alien cams. The safety of our customers is our number one priority. Testing has revealed that there was a brazing issue with specific cams made after November 2004. The units to be identified are marked with a small center punch dimple at the base of the round ball where the axle goes through the cable eye. Although few failures have been reported, CCH recommends immediately discontinuing the use of any Aliens with this mark. CCH is recalling the cams with the identifying punch mark. Please return them to CCH for a new replacement unit. You can mail your cams to: Colorado Custom Hardware, Inc ATTN: Brazing Recall 115 E. Lyon St Laramie, WY 82072 If you are not sure if your cams are included in the recall, please contact us at (307)721-9385. We sincerely apologize for this inconvenience and we are doing everything possible to correct it quickly. There will be a photograph on our web site to help to identify the cams that need to be returned. The Web site address: Aliencamsbycch.com Sincerely, Colorado Custom Hardware, Inc 115 E. Lyon St Laramie, WY 82072 Quote
EWolfe Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 Aliencamsbycch.com If ya read their website link fast, it sounds like Alien Cams, Bitch! Quote
111 Posted January 13, 2006 Author Posted January 13, 2006 I love that their website touts the strength of the brazing and the error proof machinery. And how is it that all their recalled cams happen to have a dimple on them??? That seems a little suspicious. Like they were planning it from the start... They PLANNED to go out of business back in November 04! I got that company figured out. Good thing mine made it by 6 months Quote
Alpinfox Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 rockgirl77- the RC.com threads discuss this but REI is accepting returns on Aliens right now, no questions asked, for any bought or manufactured in 2005. you can tell what month/year the alien was made by looking at the under side of the trigger. It is stamped there. Isn't it true some don't have this stamp... especially the older ones? Yes. Some of the older ones have date of manufacture stamped on the TOP of the trigger bar. So I have a couple questions about this whole deal that I have kept silent about until now. 1) How did that guy on rc.com happen to be taking rapid frames/sec pictures of the fall and how did he happen to have the faulty alien immediately backed up by some other cam? Chance? 2) How did all the defective aliens happen to have a dimple on the bulb at the connection point? Chance? There is something weird going on. Quote
EWolfe Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 Coding, perchance (on the dimple thing). A singularity in each "batch" is easier than a code? I think RuMR got dumped by a CCH hottie, and is pissed. Quote
JosephH Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 rockgirl77- the RC.com threads discuss this but REI is accepting returns on Aliens right now, no questions asked, for any bought or manufactured in 2005. you can tell what month/year the alien was made by looking at the under side of the trigger. It is stamped there. Isn't it true some don't have this stamp... especially the older ones? Yes. Some of the older ones have date of manufacture stamped on the TOP of the trigger bar. So I have a couple questions about this whole deal that I have kept silent about until now. 1) How did that guy on rc.com happen to be taking rapid frames/sec pictures of the fall and how did he happen to have the faulty alien immediately backed up by some other cam? Chance? 2) How did all the defective aliens happen to have a dimple on the bulb at the connection point? Chance? There is something weird going on. Alpinfox, We are way past the hoax stage at this point. I think there is something "weird" going on too, but it has more do with why some Aliens have "dimples" and others do not. Hopefully along with the recall we'll get some answers... Quote
crackers Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 1) How did that guy on rc.com happen to be taking rapid frames/sec pictures of the fall and how did he happen to have the faulty alien immediately backed up by some other cam? Chance? I emailed the guy from RC.com when this whole thing started. He wrote me that he was trying a hard lead (for him) and wanted pictures because he'd fallen there many times on TR before trying the lead. So one of his friends was clicking away with the digital... 2) How did all the defective aliens happen to have a dimple on the bulb at the connection point? Chance? Its pretty common to put a small but distinguishable mark on each jig/person/workshop 's product to track who's doing what (im)properly. I do it with my packs. Quote
JosephH Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 This is a copy of an email sent to CCH today: ---------------------------------------------------- Regarding the CCH Brazing Recall Notice Thank you for investigating the circumstances around the recent failed stem brazing on an orange Alien as reported on RockClimbing.com and for instituting a voluntary recall of cams specifically identified in your recall notice. That Brazing Recall notice covers cams produced from 11/04 thru 2005 that are identified as "marked with a small center punch dimple at the base of the round ball where the axle goes through the cable eye". This recall by CCH is a very positive and productive step toward restoring the climbing community's faith and confidence in what we can all agree is a great product. However, there remains several important questions left unanswered by your recall notice. These questions relate to the several product defects observed during 2005 and to the issue of what product is actually affected. The remaining questions are: Remaining Questions Stem Braze Failure 1) Why were cams marked with a "center punch dimple"? What purpose did this mark serve? 2) An orange cam failure reported on RockClimbing.com sparked the investigation leading to this recall - was that cam marked with a "center punch dimple"? 3) MGear tested nine cams resulting in 3 stem brazing failures - were those 3 cams marked with the "center punch dimple"? 4) Has there been any reported or tested stem brazing failures of cams without the "center punch dimple"? Mis-drilled Axle Holes Some cams were produced with mis-drilled cam lobe axle holes that were assmebled into finished products and shipped to retailers. Below is a photo of a cam with this defect that was purchased at the REI in Bend, Oregon in December 2005. The photo notes where the axle hole center should be located to achieve CCH's 16 degree cam angle. 5) Do you know what product (dates, sizes, and type) were affected by this defect? 6) Is this erronous displacement of the axle hole from its designed location the same on all defective cams or does it vary from cam to cam? 7) Will you issue a seperate recall for this defect? General Quality Comments Again, I applaud both your products and your renewed efforts to address the defective stem brazing issue. But incidents in 2005 have raised legitimate concerns about what quality methods employed at CCH. Given the scope and scale of your business I for one certainly don't expect CCH to initiate an expensive, world-class quality initiative. But as climber that often trusts my life to the integrity of your products I nonetheless feel justified in expecting minimal but effective quality measures. Simple Quality Tests Three CCH cam defects were observed during 2005 - failed stem brazing, mis-drilled axle holes, and torn trigger sleeves. Defective trigger sleeves, while annoying, are unlikely to endanger a climbers life. Stem brazing and axle hole defects on the otherhand do represent a clear safety hazard. Each of these two defects could be largely eliminated from shipped products with the application of two simple quality checks. Pull Testing The bottom line is that after the events of 2005 climber confidence has been shaken. The Brazing Recall is a great first step to restoring confidence in your product but does not adequately address lingering doubts and suspicions still clearly evident in on-line discussions. Instituting pull testing of every finished cam prior to shipping would go a long, long way towards a total restoration of confidence in your product and company. Such testing would not be an overly expensive, technically difficult, or particularly onerous quality check to implement. Cam Axle Hole Location Test A set of aluminum plates/jigs could easily be machined with a negative cam lobe shape embedded in them that includes and axle stub. As cam lobes come of the CNC machine at the start of each run a sampled cam lobe from the run could simply be dropped into the appropriate jig and tested for proper axle hole location. This quality check would be cheap, simple, and inobtrusive to implement. Summary CCH provides unique and valued product to a fiercely loyal customer base and no one wants to see the loss of CCH or Aliens. I and others would, however, simply like to see CCH reflect that loyalty by providing solid products, simple and honest communication, and responsive customer service that acknowledges and responds to our ongoing needs as valued customers. A response to these questions and comments would be very much appreciated. Joseph Healy Portland, Oregon Quote
catbirdseat Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 90% of the posts on any of the CCH threads on RC.com consist one of the following: 1) I love my Aliens and will continue to use them. 2) I hope my Aliens are not from the affected Lots. 3) Please send me your defective Aliens and I will dispose of them properly. In order to reduce wastage of storage space on CC.com, simply post the number 1, 2 or 3 to express your opinion. Quote
JosephH Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 To fellow CC'ers: I just got off the phone with Dave at CCH after calling him to let him know about the above email. Though obviously very busy he did answer the phone and take some time to speak with me. He understandably probably can't fully respond to all of the above answers immediately and does not currently have all the information yet himself(like whether Kevin's orange cam that sparked all this or the 3 MGear cams that failed testing had the dimple marking). I let him know I'm not looking for an immediate response but rather would prefer he wait until he feels he can reasonably craft a response that addresses my[/our] concerns. Dave expressed a clear understanding that there may be lingering questions and doubts not specifically addressed by the Brazing Recall notice and a sincere desire to address all those concerns. He definitely "gets it" that he has fiercely loyal customers that nevertheless still have some [legitimate] doubts about their cams. I attempted to reiterate that I am one of those customers, use his products, and that I felt that every climbing gear manufacturer we have is "precious" and valued and absolutely no one wants to see him do anything but continue to make and sell the products that have built him a this vocal following. So again, Dave said he would respond to the questions in my letter and we may all see his response at the same time, but if his response comes via email I will let everyone know at that time. So let's give him a some time to get on with this recall, do some more research, and get back to us. Joseph Healy Portland, Oregon Quote
archenemy Posted January 13, 2006 Posted January 13, 2006 Archenemy, Sorry, trying to help sort through this issue across three sites is making me a bit terse - but could we please skip the humor posts on this one. Sure, would you like me to help your effort and go through all the humorous posts that come after this one and alert them to your wishes? I just want to help. Quote
JosephH Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 I got a quick response from Dave/CCH regarding the questions I emailed him. No doubt we will get a more comprehensive information once he has a chance to do a real post mortem but for now here are now the answers he sent: ------------------------------------------ Remaining Questions Stem Braze Failure 1) Why were cams marked with a "center punch dimple"? What purpose did this mark serve? CCH: "The centerpunch identified the company that made the braze." 2) An orange cam failure reported on RockClimbing.com sparked the investigation leading to this recall - was that cam marked with a "center punch dimple"? CCH: "Yes." 3) MGear tested nine cams resulting in 3 stem brazing failures - were those 3 cams marked with the "center punch dimple"? CCH: "Yes." 4) Has there been any reported or tested stem brazing failures of cams without the "center punch dimple"? CCH: "No." Mis-drilled Axle Holes 5) Do you know what product (dates, sizes, and type) were affected by this defect? CCH: "0305 is the date associated with the axle hole issue. All the cams I have seen with the axle hole off are 0305. Perhaps it extends to 0405. It is not a safety concern according to tests I have made. They hold well in excess of 3000. 6) Is this erronous displacement of the axle hole from its designed location the same on all defective cams or does it vary from cam to cam? HEALYJE: See #5. 7) Will you issue a seperate recall for this defect? HEALYJE: See #5. ------------------------------------------ Dave followed up these answers with: CCH: "I will keep you informed on this matter. I will be talking to more experts on brazing in the next few days - Dave I let Dave know I very much appreciated his quick response and again, I have no doubt we will hear more on the matter as information is available to CCH... Joseph Healy Portland, Oregon Quote
111 Posted January 16, 2006 Author Posted January 16, 2006 Thanks for sending the letter JH. I think that has helped us all understand the issue a little better. Does anyone know if it is a common practice to do in-house brazing or do most cam makers send the cams away to another company for the brazing? Quote
Alpinfox Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 Great information Joseph and Crackers. Thanks. Quote
JosephH Posted January 16, 2006 Posted January 16, 2006 Thank you and you're welcome. From here on out it's would probably be best to just follow the SuperTopo and RC threads as I had just answered that question as best I can on RC... http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=140782&f=0&b=0 http://rockclimbing.com/post/1289794#1289794 I will post back here if and when we get another round of significant info from CCH... Josesph Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted January 21, 2006 Posted January 21, 2006 JosephH, thanks for your work, and good job keeping a professional tone about things. Quote
corvallisclimb Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 any one sent any in yet, or talked to CCH about how fast of a turnaround it is? Quote
hemp22 Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 any one sent any in yet, or talked to CCH about how fast of a turnaround it is? corvallis, a summary of the developments on the other sites is something like this: - one guy sent his 4 dimpled aliens back in. CCH received them on 1/20/06, and he got all 4 replacement cams today (1/30/06). - if you do send yours in, note that there's a mistake in the CCH mailing address listed on their website - it's actually "115 East Lyons Street" instead of "115 Lyon Street" (This is information that another guy got from the post office) - The original guy who had the orange alien fail that started this whole thing back in december talked to Dave on the phone today (1/30/06), and according to that phone conversation, CCH has begun pull-testing every cam they produce. - another guy tested his 150-lb body weight on 2 of his dimpled aliens, and 1 of the 2 broke during his test. those are probably the only updates worth reporting so far. Quote
JosephH Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 Please everybody - if you have Aliens covered by the recall then send them in now. Send them registered or certified if you want, but please send them asap so CCH can address this issue in as timely a matter as possible. Quote
corvallisclimb Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 Please everybody - if you have Aliens covered by the recall then send them in now. Send them registered or certified if you want, but please send them asap so CCH can address this issue in as timely a matter as possible. good point Joseph, I will get mine sent in... weathers bad anyways Quote
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