Bolt-mania

[Guest]

Hey Guys!

I've been hearin' about and seein' some disturbing things out at the crags. I haven't seen it myself but I heard that some feller went out and added bolts to Dan's Dreadful Direct on Castle Rock, essentially turning it into a sport-climb. Is that really so? You know, back in the day, long before sticky shoes and fast pro., a few bold climbers were actually leading that thing on spooky gear. And why can't those of us today who want to climb it step up to the challenge or more likely, settle for a top-rope, stragtegies that don't permanently damage the rock or dumb-down the climbing?

Same story at Index! A few years ago someone thought they would do us all a favor by bolting "Numba-10", an old aid line that now takes RP's and other assorted small items. I know you can place pieces in the crack every few feet but I guess it's a lot easier to clip bolts and hang then to try it the bold way. And maybe if it's too dangerous to lead it on trad. gear, maybe it should be left alone or aided and top-roped! Same for Dana's Arch! It can be led on aid using cam-hooks and small stuff, but someone, in the name of "preserving the crack" from additional piton damage or whatever left an obnoxious line of bolts so that it could "free-climbed"; an arrogant event that has probably caused more permanent damage to the surrounding rock than a herd of aid climbers.

"Uh, duh, ya, duh, but...but it goes freeee now!"

So what!

Have some respect for the rocks and yourselves!

Anyway, that's just this Big-Wall Girl's point of view.

P.S. Speaking of Index...for all you big shots out there. I heard on good authority that people were top-roping City Park in their EB's 30 years ago and some were apparently successful or nearly so, but didn't feel a need to pop-off about it. They were climbing for themselves and not necessarily for the esteem-boosting praises or envy of their peers.

[Dru]

well i heard that fred beckey actually free climbed city park in 71 but he's forgotten it now and it's the one ascent he never told anyone about....

i was climbing scary canary while the bolters were doing dan's and i would have to say it is not a pure sport climb, there are 2 gear placements supplementing 8 or 9 bolts. a true sport climber would therefore call it a trad route?????

[Dru]

I agree, and I made up that bit about Fred doing City Park too!!

There seems to be a lot of spray sneaking out of its closet and infecting the other boards, ya? I wonder why the Big Lou thread is not on spray by now? Cause Tim is moving or what?

To reaffirm the spray nature of this post -oh yeah?well so's your mom!

[Cpt.Caveman]

Yeah I saw Fred climbing up Carl's Berg WI5 this winter too

DDD route is bolted but oh well I guess that is what happens when the thing sees a handful ascents in 15 years (or so I hear). Apparently someone decided they wanted to climb it and be somewhat safe about it. Not to argue that I agree with bolting it because I feel in the middle about it. Face it, now it is a great line that will be climbed by more than a handful in the next 15 yrs. Doh !! Let me see hit the deck for some climb or be safe they must have thought. I think the arrogance and machismo was downgraded on one half of me to be honest. The other side says damn there are plenty of other routes to get on too.

As far as overbolting I dont think it falls into this category myself. If you dont like it go chop em. To call it Bolt Mania may be a little overboard too?

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 05-17-2001).]

[Eddie]

I agree with Donna . Why isn't any of the people that are changing the character of these routes ever defending their position ? The perpetrator should have more respect...I think thats the problem.

[pope]

It's true that those opposed to retro-bolting aren't very diplomatic, but then they're not running for office. And if they're short on diplomacy, then your average retro-bolter is abysmally poor in the ability to logically present persuasive arguments.

Why are we so eager to reduce the challenges offered by mountaineering? I thought challenge was one of the big reasons we go to the hills. Retro-bolters seem convinced that scary routes must be made safe with bolts, even when perfect safety is just a top-rope away. Another defense of retro-bolting is that it increases traffic, thereby rescuing routes from obscurity. I don't recall anybody lowering the hoop so that I could dunk a basketball; it's understood that not every athletic accomplishment is within the ability of every athlete. And yet we're willing to litter our cliffs with bolts to give ourselves the illusion that we can "lead" 5.11? The routes discussed above have always been accessible by top-rope, but I guess you just don't get the same ego stroke on a top-rope. What is arrogance if not the willingness to say, "My desire to bolt and then 'lead' this route is more important than the wishes of those who don't want the cliffs to look like a construction zone."

[crazyjizzy]

I own a battery powered saw-zall with a metal cutting blade!

[Eddie]

Right on pope .

[Guest]

Hey "Peter Puget":

a) what's wrong with my attitude?

b) what's inconsistent?

c) what's not factual about my post?

Face it. Indiscrimate bolting is littering. It also makes the crags more crowded.

Who says that someone's little project is more important than preserving the rock itself? What's with the idea that every bit of rock that can stand a route should have one?

This isn't spray. These are important questions from individuals such as myself who want to puke when they visit such places as Vantage (did you ever see the place before it became a sea of hangars - both the metal kind and the people kind? It was gorgeous!).

- Donna

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Eddie, I bet the guys that bolted the thing dont surf the internet or even know of this site. People here seem to think they are the only climbers in WA or the Northwest

Like I said go chop it if you want. Maybe a bunch of holes in the rock look better?

[crazyjizzy]

Donna,

I think that Pete agree's with you!

[Eddie]

Well just thought I'd throw it out there captain I don't expect anyone to answer for it anyway. It would be nice if someone would put their name to it . Maybe they have access to a computer maybe not. I know I'm not the only climber in the state just one with a little respect.

[Jens]

The bolts in question on DDD are rather

in poor taste. It doesn't have to sound like a witch hunt, but I am curious who put them in.

I have climbed the route prior to the bolts being added. If my memory serves me correct , from about 40 off the ground to the finish, there are bomber gear placements, yet it is a bit far apart so just prepare for a big safe winger. The first 3rd of the route if I remember was a different story. It had some sketchy gear. If nothing else, the route could have been equiped with two bolts down low, and then only by a few people.

Dana's arch is a different story. The bolts adhere to the Yosemte ethic and even Bachar wouldn't blow his top. Having free and aid climbed the thing (in the rain) , pins will destroy parts of the flake, stoppers try to lever out and cable stemed cams will torque in a wierd way . The bolts were added to save the feature, much like wheat thin on the cookie cliff by Bridwell in t he 70's, Sure one could do the thing on gear if he or she had to but the logic is different.

As for Numbah ten, how much is the climb getting tried now? Does anybody know? Wasn' t Tom Herbert the only one to ever onsight flash it with no beta?

I hope my comments don't sound to much like they belong on the spray forum.

I'm bored. Great topic discussion starter.

Everybody's got an opinion.

[Peter_Puget]

This is about as sporting as shooting fish in a barrel.

Wrong with attitude - I essentially agree with you and yet I am so repulsed by the tone of your message that I feel like bolting City Park. Whats with disparaging others who you do not even know with insults as to their motivations and so on. Surely you have heard the old adage its easier to catch a fly with honey than with vinegar. Your attitude limits others from seeing that you may have a valid point of view.

Argue against oneself - ""Numba-10", an old aid line that now takes RP's and other assorted small items. I know you can place pieces in the crack every few feet but I guess it's a lot easier to clip bolts and hang then to try it the bold way. " Notice the words "now takes". At the time the bolts were place your admit that the placements wern't there. Thus to lead it the bold way mean free solo!

Not factual - "It can be led on aid using cam-hooks and small stuff, but someone, in the name of "preserving the crack" from additional piton damage or whatever left an obnoxious line of bolts so that it could "free-climbed"; an arrogant event that has probably caused more permanent damage to the surrounding rock than a herd of aid climbers." This time it must be ignorance on your part. The initial arch was first lead free at 5.12. It is now 5.10+. When first bolted it was 5.11+. This route was significantly changed by pins and cam hooks subsequent to the first ascent and subsequent to the bolting. Also bolts have been added to this pitch since it was first bolted. Unquestionably the intial bolts in no way caused more perm damage to the surrounding rock than the herd of climbers that followed. To suggest otherwise is an outright lie or patent ignorance.

Indiscriminat bolting would be ugly but even the use of the term is dirisive - I am sure the bolters wanted those bolts where they placed them. I first went to Vantage about 20 years ago and agree its become pretty disgusting but so has Little Si, Exit 38 and many other places. What is irritating is that the posters here often pick specific routes that caused them anguish and then they try to bring in an authority outside of their aurgument. Why mention Index when the post is about DDD? 1970s almost freeing of City Park. Pope - does it really matter to your augument that you watched a woman sport climber climb that route on the Wart Wall? If you hadnt would the retro bolting be ok?It seems that the logic supporting your position should be unattached to any particular route or experience but the posts always degenerate into: "dont turn my routes into gf routes", "don't dumb down climbing". Certainly those posters if they are serious about their position should demand better of themselves.

[Peter_Puget]

Yeow! My spelling is terible!

[pope]

Peter,

Watching a female sport climber lead the Edge climb was just an episode in my experience with the route. Truth is, I've never seen anybody else lead it. You may dig up that post and find, after a more careful reading, that I expressed my feelings of respect for her persistence. She took some enormous falls from the crux but her skillful belayer did not allow her to hit the ground.

I've read numerous posts written by those in favor of rap bolting which accuse "trad" climbers of being macho and arrogant. Including a story in my post about a female sport climber's ascent of the Edge served the purpose of refuting the myth that only macho trad climbers are capable of enjoying that kind of challenge. Peter, I even spelled it out for you. That's twice now.

You're convinced that I'm sexist, and a decade ago you'd have been right on the money. So, take away the gender of the clilmber in my example and what do you have? A sport climber enjoying the Edge's cerebral challenge, taking big falls, and no casualities (but for my poor rope). Peter, you're a smart guy, how might that have supported the premise of my post?

OK, OK, OK, B.F.D. You agree that Vantage looks like shit. Guess what: many people think the place is just swell and they wouldn't even cough if Castle Rock went the same direction. Some people just don't think bolts are ugly, and you're not going to change their minds. The best you can do is get them to respect that at certain cliffs, bolts have been avoided because their use has been regarded as cowardly, as lowering the challenge to match low skill. Like it or not, that's always been the counterpart to aesthetics arguments. You can only hope that those who don't subscribe to these ideas will respect them at certain cliffs.

[Guest]

I never heard the story about Freddy B. He's a great climber but I can't see him messing around with such a desperate thing back then. Actually, from what I understand, some of these attempts were in the mid to late 70's.

RE: Castle Rock. Who can blame the Wilderness rock-cops from legally banning bolts when people go out to traditional areas like C.R. and add their "improvements" and bolted "projects". How about top-roping those desperate "sporty" climbs? Itleaves no trace but unfortunately for those with the need, it won't earn a place for their obscure name in a guidebook.

- Donna

[Peter_Puget]

Yikes! It kills me that all the people advocating limiting bolts all have such a terrible attitude that it make sme want to be against their position just because they seem so self righteous! I agree completely that bolts are over used now but fail to see much in of the way of analysis that will convince anyone who thinks otherwise of that fact. For example the cases stated in this post are either factually wrong or inconsistant with the conclusions drawn from them. Surely this post is a troll trying to incite a series of flames. I respond only because this is a serious issue which should be dealt with in a more responsible manner as the impact of future regulation will be serious indeed.

Peter

 

[AlpineK]

Peter,

You seem to favor constructive engagement. The US government has been trying constructive engagement in their dealings with China in the hopes that this would improve human rights in China. I don't notice any change in China.

While trying to politely convince pro sport bolters not to wreck routes may be a feel good solution, I would argue that this is inefective. The pro bolters have free reign at Vantage, Exit 38, ect... and yet this is not enough. There have been many polite and well thought out arguements presented to bolters and yet routes like DDD get bolted. At some point there needs to be a negative response to bolting. Bolters need to know that others hate their actions and if they transgress too far they should be punished by having their routes chopped.

Chopping a route shouldn't be done lightly as some have pointed out above the end result is not restoration of the rock; however it may be justified. Im certainly not running out this weekend to chop the route, but I wouldn't cry if someone did.

If you want to be the honey when it comes to the bolting argument thats fine, but you should respect the honeybees who want to defend their resource.

[Peter_Puget]

Pope -

I didn’t mean to imply you were sexist. In fact, I believe that if I was to remove the word "woman" from my last post it would not change the logic. My error was putting that word near the "girl friend route " comments. What I was getting at was not that a woman climbed it but that I believe any worthwhile argument against bolting doesn't rest on a personal experience anyone may or may not have had with a route. Excuse my idiocy but the argument still seems to be:“We bold traditional climbers with higher standards have better values than you wimpy sport climbers not able to suck it up.” I simply find this approach itself arrogant and not very effective despite the fact that I am sympathetic to it. Your right that many are not offended by what Vantage has become. My guess is that they view the world differently than you and me (at least with regard to this issue) My guess also is that since they do not share your vision many will see your position as only a reflection of your values – values they do not share. Values not intrinsically superior or inferior to their own. I am merely saying that if they do not share your values appealing to your values to change another’s behavior can only be considered vain arrogance from their viewpoint. Sure it might be possible to cow and intimidate them in to submission but then again it might not. In other areas this has lead to an escalation of conflict sometimes ending in “I am not getting my way so I am going to the Land Manager!” And is that truly the best way? (How many time does the word value appear in this paragraph?!)

Why isn’t there a discourse regarding Vantage, Si and Exit 38. Is it because they are not valued by “trad” advocates as much as say Leavenworth or Wa Pass? (One climber once told me that chipping at Index didn’t matter because Index was compared to some other areas (say Yosemite) an inferior location.) Is that why there is silence regarding these other areas? If so, this silence reinforces the position that “trad” advocates are merely asserting their own views and values via a selfish “not in my backyard mentality.” In earlier posts I suggested ways to avoid this conflict of vision problem. Thanks for spelling your views out twice and again I apologize for my spelling as I cannot seem to spell out what I am meaning even once!

And just to be clear I agree the bolting of DDD is a bad thing!

Alpine - It’s true I am suggesting constructive engagement but also must admit that sometimes a peer pressure is needed. Perhaps in the form of “Choppng” a route. I would not be adverse to the new bolts on DDD being removed. By the way I have even chopped some bolts myself and have come to the conclusion that if you make a big mess chopping them you are really doing something wrong! When the bolts on Cunning Stunt at Index were removed I received several phone calls and emails asking if I did it? I did not, but just mention this so that my position is clarified. Just remember that the ‘our” in “our resources” includes everyone.

 

[jblakley]

AlpineK

Well let's be honest here. Those who "hate" bolts are in the minority. So should the vocal, proactive minority dictate policy for the rest? We could spend a couple of weeks chopping bolts at Vantage in preperation for our upcoming invasion of China...LOL.

I love trad climbing. I like the mental challenge and the sense of adventure. It would piss me off if a crack were bolted.

I love sport climbing. I like the physical challenge and athletic nature of it. I would be irritated if a route had a bolt every three feet but I would not chop it, I would just climb something else. Or bolt my own desperate runout.

If the question is asthetics then I think a bunch of gray glue used to fill in a chopped bolt is at least as ugly as a bolt. Whether we like it or not this is no longer an elitist sport and there are so many mixed ethics now that it will never be like it was when Royal was pulling hard.

[max]

Good discussion. I'm glad to see people energized about the topic, but still (relatively) civil.

My thoughts:

1. I think the route setting/retrobolting standards for a particular climbing area should be decided upon by the LOCAL climers. This means local climbers need to organize, determine, and pubicise how they think routes should be created and protected. I would point to two climbing areas that have done just this. Read the smith guide book. In the begining, the dude (Alan Watts?) outlines the areas ethics well (generally rap bolting ok, no chipping, glueing's ok, be descrete...) And it seems people follow by these ethics. The other area, Paradise Forks, has said "No Bolts. Period" ok ok, they have two bolts in the whole (or should I say "hole"?) area. And new bolts get chopped. The bottom line is people see that a concencous has been formed and realize their deviations will not be tolerated.

2. Climbers need to be active in determining and diseminating these standards. I think most people would agree that keeping "The Man" out of climbing decisions is good for climbing, AS LONG AS CLIMBERS CAN MANGAGE THEMSELVES. Don't want regulations? Form a local group and get the word out! I'd point towards Red Rocks, Smith, Devils Tower....

3. This ones the kicker. Notice in #1 I said

"standards for a particular climbing area should be decided upon by the LOCAL climers." This ones the kicker. I think most people would respond with "these resourses are everyones resourses. No one has the right to destroy "public" property." I think this is right along the lines of the growth management issues going on on the east side. I feel locals should have control of their local public lands. Maybe it's my "I hate you you #*@$ing 206'ers" shining through I get tired of westsiders telling rural's on the east side how they should manage thier lands! I digress. Local control. Justifying it is difficult because I take it as a fundamental. And if you're not a local and want a say, drive to the meetings, hang at the crags, and be active and let your voice be heard, but don't cry to daddy if your opinion doesn't reign.

 

[Charlie]

Blah blah bla... chirp chirp chirp.......lame

[jblakley]

Chirp chirp chirp? You playin' the The Bad Touch Symphony in the barnyard again Chuck? You Ellensburg boys never cease to amaze me with your range of hobbies...LOL

disclaimer: this is just humor and not meant to slam Ellensburg. Remember just a joke. :-)

[Dru]

hey check out this link: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000415.html

they can probably make no-trace, stick -on, removable bolts out of this stuff too. the old era of drilled holes may end and make all our ethics obsolete!!