archenemy Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 if i am to consider your statement above as a serious reply, free of subtle innuendo and camouflaged sarcasm(?), i would note that i am not "anti-bolt" per se, but i certainly advocate a judicious approach, perhaps erring on the side of restraint (I very much appreciate the existence of locales such as the Needles, SD, and grit in England etc. it's a different game, and damn interesting). i can imagine i know what you mean. but without knowing what you mean, it's hard to tell. It is a completely serious reply. I am also not anti-bolt. But something about climbing a beautiful non-bolted route is simply without measure. And it's different than climbing a route that was bolted and placing pro instead of using the bolts. It is simply better for me when the route is not bolted. And I think that underneath all the well thought-out arguements (both sides have great, valid points) there lies that gut feeling and response to the climb. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 You go from scientist to poet with no effort. And none of that rhyming shit either. Bravo. Quote
archenemy Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 It's always fun reading the well thought out arguements against bolting. They sound very logical and scientific. They are built up carefully and unwrapped just right. Am I the only one who just likes climbing a route that hasn't been bolted just because it seems to feel better? Tell me someone else out there knows what I mean. You argument is the aesthetic one. Perhaps. But part of me is really not thinking about the beauty of the climb so much as the inexplicable viceral response to it. I am sure the appearance of the climb is an important factor, but there is more than that. Quote
pope Posted December 11, 2005 Author Posted December 11, 2005 But part of me is really not thinking about the beauty of the climb so much as the inexplicable viceral response to it. Yes, precisely. There is no "logical" reason why one should oppose bolts. The logic starts from some kind of premise, that climbing is a "special" activity (read the post above). Then if you assume that this experience is a function of how close to a "wilderness" feel the climb has, and if you assume that future parties should be able to find the same "special" experience on the climb, logic then dictates that we should avoid bolts (or at least restrain ourselves when applying them). Quote
archenemy Posted December 11, 2005 Posted December 11, 2005 Whatever. You missed it man. But good luck out there nonetheless. Quote
pope Posted December 11, 2005 Author Posted December 11, 2005 But part of me is really not thinking about the beauty of the climb so much as the inexplicable viceral response to it. I'm telling you dude, your inexplicable response to the experience (not the beauty of the pitch) is explained this way (whether you understand this on some conscious level or not): when you're climbing a wall without bolts, you feel scared, wild, independent, rugged, maybe like a pioneer, like a mountain man, like a warrior. When you clip bolts, you feel like a pussified city boy, and there is visual evidence to suggest you're not far from civilization, and that depresses you. Our session is over. Get off mny couch. Oh...and that'll be $50 please. Quote
catbirdseat Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Because the local climbers are pussies? Quote
EWolfe Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 But part of me is really not thinking about the beauty of the climb so much as the inexplicable viceral response to it. Yes, precisely. There is no "logical" reason why one should oppose bolts. The logic starts from some kind of premise, that climbing is a "special" activity (read the post above). Then if you assume that this experience is a function of how close to a "wilderness" feel the climb has, and if you assume that future parties should be able to find the same "special" experience on the climb, logic then dictates that we should avoid bolts (or at least restrain ourselves when applying them). Good Luck with that premise. Hope it works out for you and your throng of "converts". I mean, who could resist? You're like one of those magnetic cult leaders with your smooth prose. Quote
pope Posted December 12, 2005 Author Posted December 12, 2005 You're like one of those magnetic cult leaders... Quote
Off_White Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Thanks for cropping your tube socks out of that photo, that would be a little too over the top. Quote
JosephH Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 It certainly doesn't look like this needed fixed pro. And did anyone at the time consider using fixed pins instead instead of bolts when making the decision to fix pro. They would have been way less intrusive than the bolted line. This line of bolts wouldn't last a week if it were on an El Cap route in the Valley. Quote
catbirdseat Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Joseph, do you think fixed pins are better than bolts? They may be aesthetically more pleasing because they are part of the crack, but functionally they are the same as bolts. Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 (edited) functionally they are nowhere near bolts. not for long atleast. Edited December 12, 2005 by sexual_chocolate Quote
JosephH Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Yes, to be honest I do. They are more in keeping with the traditions of our sport and still require a degree of skill and knowledge in their placement. But I think that skill is rapidly disappearing and people are used to clipping bolts from gyms so that when people nowdays think fixed pro they instantly just jump directly to bolts and I think that is a bit of a shame when you're talking cracks. That said there are places and rock where the freeze/thaw cycle will loosen pins and they have to be reset periodically which bolts don't. I've never placed a bolt for protection, but I have placed some pins. If I were to be so inclined I would still follow a self-imposed protection protocol of gear > pins > bolts with bolts being pro of absolutely last resort at all times. Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Yes, to be honest I do. They are more in keeping with the traditions of our sport and still require a degree of skill and knowledge in their placement. But I think that skill is rapidly disappearing and people are used to clipping bolts from gyms so that when people nowdays think fixed pro they instantly just jump directly to bolts and I think that is a bit of a shame when you're talking cracks. That said there are places and rock where the freeze/thaw cycle will loosen pins and they have to be reset periodically which bolts don't. I've never placed a bolt for protection, but I have placed some pins. If I were to be so inclined I would still follow a self-imposed protection protocol of gear > pins > bolts with bolts being pro of absolutely last resort at all times. more in keeping with the traditions of our sport? Yer a fuckin' whack job... they are an antiquitated way of leaving fixed pro in situ...or, if they are removed, they are totally destructive... for all your years of climbing, you sometimes seem to strike me as STUPID.... Quote
JosephH Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 RuMR, Again, we're talking fixed, not removable pro and as for "functionality" - I like the fact that all pins and placements are not created equal and that not all pin placements are as bomber as a bolt. Bolts are just a form of predicatble, skilless absolute that I personally despise in climbing - they instantly resolve to a harsh black and white in an infinitely shaded world I love. There is nothing "antiquated" about pins as fixed protection but only a new generation of climbers who require absolutes and guarantees when they climb. Then again, there was never any shortage of those types of climbers in the 70's, they just had the good graces to skulk and whine in silence... Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 (edited) pins are more in keeping with the "traditions" of climbing, but so is hemp rope and klettern boots. in no way does this serve as a ("functional") argument in favor of pins. bolts have their place; i just don't know if next to dana's arch is one of them. Edited December 12, 2005 by sexual_chocolate Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 so...let me get this straight...you are willing to leave behind as a fixed piece, something that isn't all that great? that is/maybe is suspect? and causes damage if its replaced? hmmmm...seems to me that you like retro shitty technology...have at it, ol' boy...by your logic, you should ditch your little rack of sliders as often times they are actually more effective than a piece of shit pin that's been through a few seasons and you can remove them... my $0.02, if you are gonna leave a mess behind, make it a worthwhile mess that actually works... but whatever floats your boat...a quick recommendation though, lose your kernmantle rope and go with an old gold line...might make things more interesting... this is the absolute dumbest argument/pointofview that i have ever heard..."let's use a fixed piece of shit instead of something decent"...i would prefer pope's dictate of "NO FIXED GEAR" over your nonsensical approach...i can't even find the logic in your argument!!! You leave a mess and it might not even work??? WHAT's THE FUCKIN' POINT??? Quote
TREETOAD Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Read Walter Bonatti's book, Mountains of My Life. Quote
JosephH Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Actually, and again, there is nothing whatsoever "antiquated" or otherwise functionly a deficit with pins of any kind; that is truly a perception borne ignorance and the need for absolutes. Bolts in no way represent a superior form of fixed pro simply because hangers are what you are used to clipping. And having just replaced 34 anchor sets I can assure you judging the soundness of bolts after just a few years (or even immediately depending on how well they were placed them) is not easy compared to pins over time and that most of those bolts couldn't be reused or removed and were as much a damaging blight as any pin that might have to be replaced... RuMR, trust me, I have no doubt whatsoever that you have no idea what I'm talking about or why... Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 good points rudy, but what about the climb that becomes climbable only after pin placements? Quote
sexual_chocolate Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Actually, and again, there is nothing whatsoever "antiquated" or otherwise functionly a deficit with pins of any kind; that is truly a perception borne ignorance and the need for absolutes. Bolts in no way represent a superior form of fixed pro simply because hangers are what you are used to clipping. RuMR, trust me, I have no doubt whatsoever that you have no idea what I'm talking about or why... dude, if you are telling us that pins are as reliable and secure as bolts, then everything rudy says above is true: you are whacked. Quote
RuMR Posted December 12, 2005 Posted December 12, 2005 Actually, and again, there is nothing whatsoever "antiquated" or otherwise functionly a deficit with pins of any kind; that is truly a perception borne ignorance and the need for absolutes. Bolts in no way represent a superior form of fixed pro simply because hangers are what you are used to clipping. RuMR, trust me, I have no doubt whatsoever that you have no idea what I'm talking about or why... no doubt about that...i haven't a clue as to what you are babbling about... I've been climbing for over 20 years so i'm not a spring chicken and have been around my fair share of fixed mank...both in the west coast and all over the east coast... You yourself in your previous post said "and that not all pin placements are as bomber"...My point is this: IF YOU LEAVE GEAR BEHIND, MAKE SURE THAT IT IS SUFFICIENT TO WARRANT THE MESS YOU'VE JUST CREATED. you wanna argue with that, go right ahead...but you are certifying yourself as a whackjob in my book and i will cease this discussion with you... Quote
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