Intro and getting started

[alakso]

Greetings everyone. Thought I take a minute to introduce myself and ask a few questions. My name is alakso, and I'm from the Penobscot Indian Nation in Maine. I'm 47 and a former Marine. I'm just getting started in serious backpacking and totally new to Mountaineering. I appreciate everyones sharing of info, many thanks. I can see I have a lot to learn!.

 

So how does one get started?

 

From what little I know I was thinking I'd go this route. This winter I'll read and learn about Mountaineering from Books (Mountaineering, The Freedom of the Hills), Videos/DVD's(any recommendations?), and forums like this one. Spend as much time hiking this winter as I can. Then next summer train on Mt. Katahdin (which is my peoples sacred Mountain) and hike the AT here in Maine to get into better shape. Next winter take some Mountaineering classes with Acadia Mountain Guides here in Maine and or Eastern Mountain climbing school and or International Mountain climbing school in NH. I would like to climb Mt. Katahdin and or Mt. Washington next winter '07. Then take some advanced Mountaineering classes as my skills and experience get better. My ultimate goal is to climb Denali. But what's more important is to enjoy myself along the way and develope good Mountaineering skills. The journey is more important than the goal!

 

Now for a few questions if everybody doesn't mind. I was hoping that I could find gear that would work all the way through my learning curve. The main things I'm wondering about is what options I'd need in my pack, and which Sleeping bag/system and Tent to buy for backpacking and mountaineering. Any gear that would work for all 4-season would be great.

 

Packs:

I'm buying a McHale's CM pack for backpacking and climbing Mt. Katahdin and Mt. Washington, all the way through my climb of Denali. Any options or prefered setups that I should consider for my requirements?

 

For a great sleeping bag/system and tents the choices are complex and daunting.

 

Sleeping bags:

I've been looking at the Stephenson's sleeping bag system with the DAM for 4-season use. I really like the idea of the DAM as I'm a side sleeper and I've spent to many cold night in the USMC sleeping cold in water filled foxholes, sides of roads, etc.. So sleeping good is a top priority for me! Or a down bag or two from companise like ID, FF, WM, and Nunatak. But this whole issue of sleeping on my down has me confused! So any recommendations on a good bag/s that will work for the above requirements is very much appreciated!

 

Tents:

It's been highly recommended that I get a free standing tent for ease of setting up and use if I get caught in a serious storm. Also trying to figure out this whole single vs. double wall thing. I can see that one tent will never cover all my needs. For 3-season tents I'm thinking something in the 2-3 person size. Something big enough for spending a couple of weeks in. Any recommendations on a great free standing 3-season tent with great ventilation and waterproofness?

 

For winter/expedition tents I've been looking hard at the ID MK3 with tunnel entrace and light floor. Any recommendations for other winter/expedition tents?

 

Woliwon (thanks in Penobscot)...alakso

[roboboy]

you might look at sites like www.rei.com that have equipment comparisons and there must be other sites like that (?). then maybe repost with specific questions if no one feels like trying to tackle all your questions at once (?).

[Alex]

From what little I know I was thinking I'd go this route....Then take some advanced Mountaineering classes as my skills and experience get better...

 

I think thats a fine plan, and in fact follows the developmental path that many of us take. (My own path was backpacking in the Adirondacks -> winter backpacking -> throw in rock climbing -> throw in ice climbing --> move to Colorado, then Oregon, then Washington ) I think you will be more focussed, and your progression will be rapid. I guess the only comment I would make is that while the "camping" aspect of things is highly important, especially for climbing in the Alaska range, the "technical" side is the side that typically takes the longest to develop.

 

Now for a few questions if everybody doesn't mind. I was hoping that I could find gear that would work all the way through my learning curve.... Any gear that would work for all 4-season would be great.

 

No one really wants to contemplate the true cost of all the camping crap when they first start out, as if you pay full retail prices you are looking at a large bill, however anyone with experience will tell you that you will eventually end up with multiples of everything: 2 or more sleeping bags, 2+ packs, a tent and probably a bivy sack. Why? Because lugging a winter bag around in the summer is incredibly overkill. Because the amount of stuff you will want to take on lightweight summer trips will require a pack half the size that you use for winter trips. Because in the summer you wont need a tent most of the time, just a bivy sack with mosquito netting. Because winter equipment weighs so much!

 

That said, i think that its a fine idea to buy your winter backpacking gear first, then see what its like to lug that stuff around in the summer time, and fill in holes accordingly. If you are climbing Denali you will need all that same winter camping gear that you take up Katahdin in the winter, and then some. The smaller pack and lighter summer sleeping bags can come later. As an ex-Marine, you will appreciate that the amount of gear you carry on any trip typically relates to the trip, and the lighter the weight of everything, the less fatigued and more energy you will have. With Mountaineering, most of the equipment weight you will be carrying will be technical climbing equipment: ropes, crampons, ice axe, snow and ice and rock protection, helment, harness...so its important to keep the weight and bulk of anything else to a minimum. But you will discover all this as you go on with your plan.

 

Or a down bag or two from companise like ID, FF, WM, and Nunatak.

 

A good winter bag should be a down bag, from one of the manufactureres you are currently looking at. Marmot, WM, FF, even TNF all make great bags. It should be a -10 or -20 bag. For Denali, however, you will probably be carting around a -30 bag. But dont buy a bag thinking about Denali, chances are by the time you do Denali you will know someone you can borrow a bag from. The first time I went to the AK range I borrowed a bag.

 

It's been highly recommended that I get a free standing tent for ease of setting up and use if I get caught in a serious storm. Also trying to figure out this whole single vs. double wall thing. I can see that one tent will never cover all my needs. For 3-season tents I'm thinking something in the 2-3 person size. Something big enough for spending a couple of weeks in. Any recommendations on a great free standing 3-season tent with great ventilation and waterproofness?

 

Quite simply, there are winter tents, and spring/summer/fall tents. Winter tents deal with snow well, the others only ok. Freestanding or not doesnt really matter much in my experience. Weight is the primary concern with tents. Double wall tents weigh more, but breathe better. Breathability is most important in humid, wet environments, like the Southeast in the summer. Like sleeping bags you wont find something that does it all. But there are tents out there that come pretty close. A small 3-person Sierra Designs tent might be nice for most of your backpacking. For mountaineering, weight rules all so you will see many more single-wall tents. I have been using a Bibler tent now for about 10 years, even in the Alaska Range (where the I-tent is a single person tent ) and its great!

 

As with anything, you will typically spend more money for good products. Becoming a very educated consumer is going to help you make good decisions, but experience will help you make better ones, and unfortunately you can't buy that.

 

Good luck, Alex

[alakso]

Thanks Alex for all your help and info. I appreciate it very much sir!

[griz]

Sounds like you've got your head screwed on straight and you are heading in the right direction.

 

One hole I see is with your mountaineering classes/schools...it would greatly benefit you to take them where there are some glaciers and get that experience under your belt. good schools on Rainier ect. It would get you used to climbing mtns on bigger/different scale than the microscopic east coast mtns and get a feel at least for a little altitude(and how to deal with that) with pros around to give advice, as well.

[knelson]

I think Alex summed it up great for you, even though it sounds like you have it pretty well figured out and don't need much help!

 

If you continue with this hobby for more than a couple years, you WILL end up with multilples of many things. So don't beat yourself up too much about gear decisions. Go with what is right for your current circumstance, with an eye for the future. Then make mental notes of what you end up disliking about said gear and remember that for the next time your make a purchase!

 

While I agree with Griz that at some point, you'll want to pick up some glacier instruction/experience and experience with elevation, it doesn't seem like you need it right now for what you want to do over the next few years. Get your basic skill set down with a local school or group and practice practice practice. When you're comfortable with the camping/climbing thing and are ready to move on, then perhaps schedule a few weeks out west and get some glacier/altitude under your belt.

 

Just another take on it. There are many!

 

-kurt

[Bug]

I bought Stephenson gear (2 man tent and their two layer down bag) in 77 and loved it for use in Montana winters. I stayed warm anad dry.

But it seem like over kill for 3 season use. You could get started for a lot less money using a lighter cheaper bag and wearing warmer clothes in it if you have to.

Down is great for light and warm in cold dry conditions but not all that great for extended trips, especially not in wet spring or fall months. I love my polarguard 3D bags and paid under $100 each on sale (Sierra Trading post, Campmore). Also watch REIOutlet.com

Another word of advice, I am 46 and have learned to respect the fact that my body is not making cartilidge at the rate it used to. Heavy loads will trash your hips, knees, and ankles very quickly if you are not careful. My father was a marine and tried to "tough it out and run it off". He was virtually crippled at 60. There is A LOT of really good light weight gear out there. My pack is rarely over 35 pounds anymore unless I have to take a larger rack for a bigger face. For a summer overnight, 25 max.

[alakso]

Great advice everyone. Many, many thanks, I appreciate it very much. Yes after playing around on these hills on the East Coast I'll head out west for some glacier/altitude schools, training, and climbing. Then hopefully some schools/classes in AK. to prepare for the "Great one". But that's a ways off so I'll focus on what I need for these hills for now.

 

With having a few miles on my hips, knees, and ankles going light make good sense for me. I'm thinking I'll get a 3-season tent and bag for around here, and then as I progress in a few years I'll get the other gear I'll need for out West and the AK. mountains.

 

Wouldn't the Stephenson's bag with the light top work for New England 3-season use? I'm also thinking hard about a synthetic bag for 3-season use here in New England. This would work good for wet weather camping and canoeing. But the light weight of down also makes sense with trying to keep my pack weight down seeing how I'm getting to be a Geezer, lol. Again, many thanks!

[Bug]

Stephenson's bags are great. Just not cheap.

[robert_Nielsen]

I love my stephensens bag. If you can afford it, you'll not regret it. The combinations possible with it cover just about anything you'd want to use it for. Filling up the DAM with the stuff sack is the only down side. You need to devote about 10 minutes or more to the job, but what a bed! Way better than sitting under a poncho with a heat tab burning between your legs!

semper fi, but Rangers lead the way

cheers bob

[Arc]

By the way...............Welcome!

[sweatinoutliquor]

It would get you used to climbing mtns on bigger/different scale than the microscopic east coast mtns

 

Careful there griz... Don't knock those NE mountains cause they can pack a whallop! Granted there isn't the glaciers, altitude and total elevation gain back east, but I can't think of a better place to learn how to deal bad weather. During winter, 2 out of 3 days the weather on mt washington is probably worse that the single worst day of weather on top of rainier. Wanna learn how to deal with rapidly changing weather and storms that bring hurricane force winds and temps well below 0F, just go spend a few days in the Presidentials! I think that's just as important as crevasse rescue, avalanche safety, etc. Practice for any of the conditions you expect to encounter!

[Cobra_Commander]

During winter, 2 out of 3 days the weather on mt washington is probably worse that the single worst day of weather on top of rainier.

 

Might agree with everything else you said but this is horseshit.

[sweatinoutliquor]

weather info

 

Typically, two days out of three will yield hurricane force gusts (73 miles per hour or greater). It is a rare winter month which does not see winds over 100 miles per hour on some occasions, and a rare winter which does not see winds of 120 miles per hour or greater.

 

The average mid-winter temperature on the summit is about 5 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

Okay, maybe a bit exagerated, but I think my point may be somewhat reasonable. I imagine Rainier get's pretty bad sometimes too. Sorry if I'm posting misinformation... Either way, I don't want to be up Rainier or Washington when it's shitty.

[sweatinoutliquor]

I didn't mean worst weather ever on Rainier! Just read it, I was meaning each year... Maybe I'm still off.

[Geek_the_Greek]

Whatever, they both can have insane weather in winter. Don't forget that a good part of the reason Mt Washington has the "worst recorded weather" is that there's a weather station on the summit.

[alakso]

Thanks again everybody for all your help!

 

Yesterday I went to my local Mountaineering shop called "Alpenglow" which is run by Acadia Mountain Guides. What GREAT people! I spent 4 hrs. there and they helped with gear selection, info, and just plain old great customer service. I'll be taking their basic Mountaineering course and climbing Mt. Washington and Mt. Katahdin with them. If any of you are ever in the northeast be sure and look them up to say "Hi". They are a true testament to what fine people Mountaineers are.

 

I also just returned from doing some camping in the western Mnts. of Maine where I encountered rain, freezing rain, and wet snow. Most of my gear got soaked but luckily my friend had a synthetic bag I could borrow and it saved the day. I'm now a believer in synthetic bags for 3-season use here in the Northeast.

 

My friends at Alpenglow were also nice enough to set up some 3-season tents in the yard for me to check out. I really liked the MSR Fusion 2! It had a great big door with full no-see-um netting, a large back window also with netting and a nice roof opening for stargazing. Pretty darm close to what I'm looking for in a tent. Plus the price is right at $239. Anyone have any experience with MSR tents and the Fusion tents in particular?

 

Woliwon (thanks in Penobscot)...alakso

[mattp]

Katahdin, in particular, is an awesome mountain. If you climb Washington and Katahdin in the winter you are well on your way to being ready for a trip to McKinley. In the spring, they'll offer good opportunities to learn some mountaineering skills, and in the Summer you need a guide for neither unless you go out of your way to find some rock climbing in one of the cirques. At any time of year, you can probably learn a lot from your friends at Acadia.

 

As to your gear purchases, you should probably try to purchase gear that will serve what you are going to focus on for the next year or two. The tent you describe sounds as if it would be great for general use and the large panels of fine mesh will be great in a New England black fly season but extra zippers and potential leak areas will not serve you well if you take that tent to Mt. McKinley. Down v. synthetic? I believe that with care you can learn to keep your down dry enough that the advantage in terms of weight and compactness outweighs the worry of soppage, but you may not need to focus on light weight and compact packing at this point in your career and the synthetic is also probably cheaper and in some respects more comfortable.

 

You'll likely get different advice from everyone you talk to and good luck sorting it all out.

[alakso]

You people are the greatest! I appreciate all your help. Mountaineers Rule!

 

I talked to Acadia Mnt. Guides for 4 hrs. the other day and I'm going to enroll in their basic or beginner Mountaineering course and in Dec. of '06 climb Mt. Washington with them and then Mt. Katahdin a month or so after that.

 

Speaking of Mt. Katahdin. It's my peoples (Penobscot) sacred Mountain. Our spiritual center is there along with our Sacred River the Penobscot. Our myths or folklore say the Gusgabbe (sp.?), our spiritual helped lives in Mt. Katahdin. I've been to the Mt. Katahdin summit solo once and been up to Chimmey Pond a few times with my sons and their classmate for school outings. I look forward to climbing Mt. Katahdin solo many times this spring, summer, and fall to prepare for my Mt. Washington climb.

 

I went back to Alpenglow Gear Sat. morning purchased the MSR Fusion 2 tent for $225 for three season use here in Maine. While a tad heavy at 7 lbs. it will cover all my needs for now. When I do Mt. Washington and Mt. Katahdin I'll be using the guides tent so no need to rush out and get a dedicated winter Mt. tent at this time.

 

So my gear list is shaping up and is as follows:

I'm getting a 5k to 7k capacity McHales pack. Still haven't decided on which exact model but more than likely a CM. I have my MSR Fusion 2 tent. Now trying to figure out which bag/s to get is becoming a pain, LOL. I really love the Stephenson system and the price isn't a concern. Just wondering about Down vs. Synthetic due to my experience this past week with getting all my gear wet. What's the best way to keep a down bag dry? I also wonder about sleeping clammy with a VB? The great thing about the Stephenson's system is it's adaptability to different situations. Light top for 3-season use here in Maine and New England, heavy top for below zero use, and both tops together for Mountaineering in very cold conditions. Woliwon (thanks in Penobscot)

[alakso]

Oh yeah, forgot to mention I'll also be taking the Wilderness First Responder class with Acadia Mt. guides. I couldn't live with myself if I couldn't help someone in need in a wilderness situation.

[DPS]

 

I'm getting a 5k to 7k capacity McHales pack.

 

Bear in mind that Dan McHale's pack volumes are very generous. A 5k McHale is often much bigger than other companies' 5k packs. I used a SARC (4500 cu in) on Denali and is was just about right. For most things you do, a 5-7k McHale pack will be way overkill. A SuperSarc would serve you much better and be big enough for Denali. Consider getting your pack built with the light weight fabric options, it will save a lot of weight and be plenty tough.

[mattp]

I agree with Dan about McHale pack volumes. I have a 7k McHale pack that I never use. If you really want one that size, I'll sell you mine cheap. I also have a SARC, and it is plenty large even for extended winter outings or expedition climbing, but more appropriately sized for the regular overnight or even a day-trip with a boatload of gear.

 

I'd second Dan's suggestion about considering the lighter fabric, too, though at risk of inflaming the gram counters around here I'll say that for a pack of this type, which you are going to fill with at least 30 pounds of gear, and often more, the extra two pounds of pack weight saved will not be all that significant. (If you take a lightweight approach to everything, however, like food, tent, ropes, miscellaneous camping gear you don't need, sleeping bag AND pack, it will add up to great savings in weight.)

[sweatinoutliquor]

Hey Alasko, just wanted to say that I think you are going about this stuff with your head on straight. Keep asking good questions, and being friendly towards folks and all that karma is going to come back to you in the form of great and safe trips with good people. Good luck, and I hope I meet you out there sometime.

~Nate

[alakso]

Thanks danielpatricksmith and mattp for your input on my McHales pack. I've already sent my deposit so I'll be getting a new one but really appreciate the offer mattp to sell me your McHales 7K pack. In Dan's video he mentioned that for climbing in AK. a big 7K pack isn't needed. Plus by climbing with guides I won't need as much volume in my pack. My thoughts are along this line. For extended 2-3 week backpacking trips I may need the extra volume. And with the bayonet system I can downsize my pack for less volume when needed. I also like the full wrap belt. Now would 2 McHales packs be nice, you bet. But I'm trying to find a happy medium if that's possible. I'm still considering a SARC with maybe a CM frame with full wrap belt, bayonets, and lightweight fabrics? After watching Dan's video I now understand a lot more about his packs and options. I'll be calling Dan this week and I'll lay out my needs and see what he recommends. Thanks again for weighing in on my pack size and volume.

[alakso]

Greetings Nate. Thanks for your kind words my friend. We can never have enough good karma! Many blessings for you, everybody on this forum, and all Sentient Beings.