Dr_Crash Posted November 6, 2005 Posted November 6, 2005 Ha! Laugh at me: my never-ending decision about which ice tool to buy is, well, never ending. My favorite climbing partner is trying to convince me not to buy Quarks since we'll climb as much alpine as waterfall at least. I am looking at the Grivel light wing in addition to the Petzl Aztar in the "alpine ice tools" category. Does anyone have experience with them? I haven't been in a shop that would have both next to each other for comparison. Does anybody know which will have the most clearance? And if Grivel's Trigger hand rest can be fitted to the Aztar shaft (Grivel's shafts I think are not the same shape). Here is my perceived list of pluses/minuses. If you have experience with these, can you help me get a better picture? Also, ease of resell is a factor. I know I could sell used Quarks in a few days, I have no idea for these... Aztar: + Can change the pick with another pick, no tools needed + Teeth all the way to the shaft on the pick + Ergonomic, insulated grip (maybe nice on very steep stuff?) - No leashfree climbing - No modular head for hammer/adze (I don't really care) Light wing: + Slightly lighter according to marketing + Has a removable horn for leashless climbing + Can be equipped with Grivel's Trigger for matching while leashless climbing + Modular head for hammer/adze (I don't really care) - Your grandmother's handle: the shaft, no grip (the Alp wing now has a shaped rubber grip, but is heavier than the Aztar) - Teeth do not go all the way to the shaft - Need a wrench to change picks And then there's the Air Tech Evo Slider (standard pick, non changeable, lightly curved shaft): only 458 g, but probably not the right all-arounder for alpine and waterfall. Thanks! drC Quote
debo Posted November 6, 2005 Posted November 6, 2005 Have you considered the Black Diamond Rage/Cobra? Also, if you choose the Light Wing then you could modify/create your own grip with spray rubber and silicon. Debo Quote
Jake_Gano Posted November 6, 2005 Posted November 6, 2005 Here are some thoughts I wrote up re: alp wing vs. aztar a while back. These are copy and pasted from another thread: I have only fondeled the aztar's at hyperspud, so I may be talking out my ass, but I do have alp wings, so here is my $.02 . Though they are both marketed similarly as a crossover between waterice tools and alpine tools, they have a different feel to them. Alp wings are long and a bit heavier (thought pretty light as well). This gives them a more 'throw of a ball' type swing, whereas the aztars (and, I am told, most CM tools) have a easy 'flick of the wrist' type swing. Also, the Grivel tool have a high degree of modularity. The adze/hammer can be remove (it's fixed on aztars, I believe) and come with a removable 'horn', as well as another finger rest you can buy from Grivel. With these toys you can use the Alp wing to drytool pretty well. The CM lacks some of that modularity. Anyways both are probably excellent tools, just get a deal, use the $ you save to buy some overpriced gas, and get out and climb more. Quote
Dru Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 quarks are good in the alpine, so just buy the quarks. Quote
featheredfriends Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 Feathered Friends stocks the Alp Wing and Aztar, has a Light Wing in rental, and Quarks are on the way. Come on down! Quote
Phil K Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 I bought a pair o Light Wings on the same theory; that they were easy on the back for alpine approaches and would do pretty well for water ice as well. I haven't been disappointed. They make a great technical tool for alpine without paying a weight penalty, work well in hard snow, and climb ice pretty well. You should compare clearance w/ other tools. I suspect that the Grivels don't have as much as some others, or if it really matters much either. This year I am planning on beefing up my Light Wings with some add-ons. You can get non-slip tape, like the kind that is used on stair treads, and cut a peice to put on the grip area of the shaft just like on the Air Tech Evolution. (Use some sandpaper to knock the really sharp texture off the tape first, or you'll shred your gloves.) There are two hammer heads, the piccolo which comes with the tool, and a heavier standard head. I've added a standard head to one of mine, and it seems to make a real difference. You can also add beefier picks, which give the head mo'mass, but might shatter a bit more in really brittle ice. The Goulotte pick is really a brute; I'm hoping to spring for a Mixte pick; a bit thinner in the tip, but still beefy. I think I will also try a nice, low tech, cheap big'old half inch bolt through the leash hole in the head, and rig the leashes through that slotted hole which must be there for some reason. With those kind of modifications, I think it becomes a pretty versatile tool. Strip it down for summer apline, busy it up for water ice. Yeah, go for it, add a horn and a trigger...... Hey wait a minute, this is starting to sound expensive. Oh, and on the Air Tech Evolution- thumbs down. Cool idea, but the head is really shaped for a straight shaft. With that bend in the shaft, I find that any natural swing results in the tip hitting at a funky angle. The plain Air Tech seems to work really well though, for a light axe. Quote
tomtom Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 I think I will also try a nice, low tech, cheap big'old half inch bolt through the leash hole in the head, and rig the leashes through that slotted hole which must be there for some reason. Sounds pretty sketchy Dr. Fill. If it doesn't weigh exactly 47 grams and cost at least $10, you may be required to peel a few hardman advertising sticker from your helmet. Oh, and the Mixte pick and the Goullotte pick have different droops, so you may have the same pick angle issues pairing a Mixte with the Light Wings. Quote
fenderfour Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 I bought a pair o Light Wings on the same theory; that they were easy on the back for alpine approaches and would do pretty well for water ice as well. I haven't been disappointed. They make a great technical tool for alpine without paying a weight penalty, work well in hard snow, and climb ice pretty well. You should compare clearance w/ other tools. I suspect that the Grivels don't have as much as some others, or if it really matters much either. This year I am planning on beefing up my Light Wings with some add-ons. You can get non-slip tape, like the kind that is used on stair treads, and cut a peice to put on the grip area of the shaft just like on the Air Tech Evolution. (Use some sandpaper to knock the really sharp texture off the tape first, or you'll shred your gloves.) There are two hammer heads, the piccolo which comes with the tool, and a heavier standard head. I've added a standard head to one of mine, and it seems to make a real difference. You can also add beefier picks, which give the head mo'mass, but might shatter a bit more in really brittle ice. The Goulotte pick is really a brute; I'm hoping to spring for a Mixte pick; a bit thinner in the tip, but still beefy. I think I will also try a nice, low tech, cheap big'old half inch bolt through the leash hole in the head, and rig the leashes through that slotted hole which must be there for some reason. With those kind of modifications, I think it becomes a pretty versatile tool. Strip it down for summer apline, busy it up for water ice. Yeah, go for it, add a horn and a trigger...... Hey wait a minute, this is starting to sound expensive. Oh, and on the Air Tech Evolution- thumbs down. Cool idea, but the head is really shaped for a straight shaft. With that bend in the shaft, I find that any natural swing results in the tip hitting at a funky angle. The plain Air Tech seems to work really well though, for a light axe. A few things - I have an Air Tech Evo. The grip tape fell off the first time I used the axe in snow. When it wasn't busy falling off, it was preoccupied with hanging onto snow, making the axe hard to hold. The Goulotte pick is the least brutish of Grivel's current lineup. The Mixte pick is for well, mixed climbing and is quite a lot beefier. In closing, the Air Tech Evo climbs easy ice just fine. Maybe your swing didn't agree with it. Quote
fenderfour Posted November 7, 2005 Posted November 7, 2005 Oh, and the Air Tech Evo Slider - It didn't seem very useful on the Air Tech Evo, even though I climbed a bit of ice with it. The leash was plenty. On snow, the slider never failed to get in the way, even when it was tied up. It's buried in the gear room now. Quote
rhyang Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 My air tech evo has been pretty good to me. The grip tape hasn't been a problem of any kind. The gloves I've used with it all have leather palms and fingers, so that hasn't been an issue. I've climbed 6 pitches of 45-55 degree alpine ice (paired with a technical tool) and a couple of snow couloirs with it too. Werks gud. Quote
bigwalling Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 If you want less beefy pick for your Light Wings get the evolution pick. It has a thinner tip. I don't know how well the mixte pick will work on a Light Wing or if it is even possible without fucking with it. Quote
John Frieh Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 Yes all your points are something to consider but at the end of the day they will not stop you from climbing WI6 (or whatever your goal is). What will stop you from achieving your goals is wasting your time hemming and hawing on a webpage and not training/climbing on your tools. Ice season is here... you should be at least a month into your training regime! If you are still worried Barry Blanchard climbed Infinite Patience with a light wing and an alp wing. Karen McNeill climbed the Cassin with a pair of Aztars. And I can guarantee you it wasn't the tools they took they determined if they made it or not. Quote
fenderfour Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 F_ck you. gear is everything. If it wasn't, climbers wouldn't endorse it. Hell I couldn't play basketball until I purchased a pair of air Jordans. Quote
Orange_Julius Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 If you are still worried Barry Blanchard climbed Infinite Patience with a light wing and an alp wing. Karen McNeill climbed the Cassin with a pair of Aztars. And I can guarantee you it wasn't the tools they took they determined if they made it or not. LOL maybe you should heed your own "advice" bungy-corded, 8 crampon carrying, bd-screw rejecting ergonaut Quote
John Frieh Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I'm just razzing Dr C as this has to be his 10th ice tool thread in the past 6 months... at this rate he might figure out which tools he wants by next year's ice season Quote
Orange_Julius Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 ha, yeah that's the truth like those guys who are debating $4000 bicycles when it's the engine that needs the most investment. Quote
Dr_Crash Posted November 8, 2005 Author Posted November 8, 2005 Yes NOLSe and others should razz me, and I wrote so as the first line of my post drC - $600 bike, engine's ok Quote
John Frieh Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I think you should go get one of those cheap pairs from FF... that way if you don't like them you aren't out a chunk of change Alp wings, light wings, rages, quarks, cobras, aztars, vipers... take your pick... they're all fine! Quote
fenderfour Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 My alpine ice tools are the Grivel Air Tech Evo and a Grivel straight shaft Rambo that I bought for $40 at Second Ascent. My steep ice tools are Grivel Tech Wings. If you want to try them out, let me know. Quote
rhyang Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 Buy a pair of each, test, then ebay as needed. Quote
Dr_Crash Posted November 8, 2005 Author Posted November 8, 2005 FF, I'll borrow the Tech Wings. Or I could just shut up, buy the stupid Quarks already, and eBay them next year when I'll 1/ know what worked and not, and 2/ will suffer from gear envy with whatever else is coming. drC Quote
bigwalling Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 F_ck you. gear is everything. If it wasn't, climbers wouldn't endorse it. Hell I couldn't play basketball until I purchased a pair of air Jordans. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, the hardest boulder problem I ever did was in a pair of Aces that I hate more than myself(that is tellin!). No it wasn't some easy problem either, it was even in that beyond gravity movie. Mind power and drugs solve gear issues. Or OE800 solves even more. But if you ever wonder why you are falling off the hardest moves... look down at shoes and make sure they are on the right feet! That said I have tons of climbing gear... but I still know how to climb with shitty stuff and make due. AARON YOU BASTARD!!! Quote
bigwalling Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 oh I could not play basketball if my life depended on it! Quote
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