Saw the flood coming

[Thinker]

link to mp3 file: interview with New Orleans mayor...he's pissed off!

 

web page

[cj001f]

Maybe we all tend to underestimate a bit because it is frightening to think of the utter destruction that lies in wait.

Did that sound too dramatic?

 

A certain administration has a history of underestimating the requirements of disastrous situations, and completely screwed priorities. Too wit: Porn is the problem

[selkirk]

Haven't done much city living have you? Sure you are probably fine out in the burbs. High population densities don't work well without functioning infrastructure, which was proven in the 19th century, and is being proven in New Orleans.

 

What do you do with the sewage produced by an 800 person apt building? Where do they get fresh water? Best way to deal with open flame cooking/heating in said building? How about the old/infirm, how do they cope with these conditions?

 

There are more issues here than just population density. Remember, the city was evacuated before the hurricane came through, so the number of people dropped significantly. And the reason you need chlorine, iodine, or some way to boil water is because it won't be fresh. You'll certainlly need to purify it. As for open flame cooking/heating, somehow I don't think the heating is as big an issued down there as it would be elsewhere. Up here, it's not even really necessary, it never really gets cold enough that a few extra blankets and little shared body heat won't suffice. North Idaho, Montana, North Dakota different story, but also lower population densities and higher levels of self-sufficiency.

 

For cooking, there's nothing that says it can't be done on a small scale with a little creativity. With damn near anything flamable you could turn a pot into grill. It may not be great, you may not want to eat chicken off it, but you could probably heat water to the point you could rehydrate pasta or make and cheese.

 

Sewage... you simply don't go inside. Time for a community outhouse or 3, or 4, or 20.

 

The old/infirm/hospitalized are pretty well hosed if enough of the infrastructure goes down. One would hope that the hospitals/care facilities are well enough prepared for them, not that that's likely though.

 

Things like this suck on all fronts, and the blame is really pretty diffuse. There isn't any one group that screwed up.

The national gov't should have been on top of the issue with the levees. The local gov't should have been riding the federal govt to deal with the levees, or taken care of it themselves. But it seems to me that after the evacuation order people really shouldnt' have been there in the first place. But in general I think people need to be more aware of there surrounding and more responsible for their own actions and safety and well being. Too many people seem to assume that it's the governments responsibility to take care of everything and make sure they live safe and secure lives free from harm, disaster, discomfort, and annoyance.

 

The Mississippi floodplane is the classic example. Every few years a big storm rolls through, the dikes break the river floods an area and a bunch of people houses float away which royally sucks for them. The govt comes back in, fixes the levees, and people build houses next to the river again, thinking oh it won't flood anytime again soon, until the next time of course. Or the barrier islands in Florida? Once every couple years they seem to get completely decimated. And 6 months later people are back building there again, and not necessarily in a fashion that could withstand another flood.

 

It just makes no sense to me to live somewhere that's prone to natural disasters and not prepare for them at every level from the govt. down to the individual, whether this means stockpiling water, food, and fuel, having a wood stove, or having a basement in case a tornado comes through.

 

I also think that living in tornado alley in a trailer park, without some bunker near by is foolhardy. Or living in the SW and not being capable of making it through a hot week without air conditioning/knowing how to deal with heat exhaustion/head stroke, or being able to leave the area. Or living in high-rise in San Fransisco that hasn't been designed to survive a serious earthquake. All of these things are irresponsible on so many levels.

 

It's a tragedy for the people who are stuck there. I wish them all the best, and hope the evacuation/recovery efforts are speedy and successful, and they find there family members safe and well. I'm sure they'll eventually recover most of New-Orleans, people will move back in, they'll rebuild the levees and hopefully make them a little higher. But I really wonder if anything will change at any level from the govt down to the individuals level of preparedness/decision making 10 years from now?

[Crux]

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

 

 

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can't-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying.

...Utterly to the point!

 

...Aw don't think anybody expected there ta be no weapons of mass destrushction in Iraq.

 

Aw don't think anybody spected there ta be any attack using airliners.

 

Aw don't think anybody expected tha levees ta break...

 

Aw fully unnerstand yer problem, rilly, aw doo.

 

Kush yuk yuk... that good peepul uf New Orlins are rilly impatient now. Aw know I'd be too. Rilly.

[lummox]

what is the difference between new orleans and vietnam?

 

gw went to new orleans.

[Mal_Con]

Nice to see that the aid just arrived in time for his arrival. Do you think they held up the food until he was coming or vice versa?

[TREETOAD]

I am thinking that the worst is yet to come, with disease and more social unrest, the polluted stagnant water and mosquitoes, starving kids that were probably undernourished to start with, not to mention all the junkies roaming around. It is hard to think about, someone is going to pay it seem to be human nature to blame somebody somewhere.

[Ireneo_Funes]

link to mp3 file: interview with New Orleans mayor...he's pissed off!

 

web page

 

Thanks for that link, Thinker.

[Peter_Puget]

link to mp3 file: interview with New Orleans mayor...he's pissed off!

 

link...picture tells alot

 

I hope it is at himself too.....

[Dru]

Don't forget this is just the start of hurricane season. How pissed do you think he will be after 4 or 5 more of these?

[Dru]

And the reason you need chlorine, iodine, or some way to boil water is because it won't be fresh. You'll certainlly need to purify it.

 

Oh yeah, chlorine, iodine and boiling are all that is needed to purify turbid water containing as much as 50% raw sewage, not to mention oil and gas. Scientific discovery of the Millennium! Sack it up Cajuns!

[murraysovereign]

The Mississippi floodplane is the classic example. Every few years a big storm rolls through, the dikes break the river floods an area and a bunch of people houses float away which royally sucks for them. The govt comes back in, fixes the levees, and people build houses next to the river again, thinking oh it won't flood anytime again soon, until the next time of course.

 

I think this has started to change - I recall reading some years back that in many areas of the Mississippi people were being told they would receive assistance to rebuild, but only if they relocated to a less vulnerable location. If they insisted on rebuilding in the same spot, they were on their own. Seems eminently sensible in the face of utterly predictable recurring events.

 

Another consideration - how much would it cost to completely rebuild New Orleans from the ground up in a new location? Is anyone seriously prepared to spend that much money? Not just roads and houses, but sewer, water, schools, hospitals, office buildings, commercial/retail districts, industrial facilities, electrical and communications grids, ... Holy Smoke, that's a lot of $$.

 

In the long term, probably the best thing that could happen would be to a) evacuate the entire city, then b) send in the Corps of Engineers to dismantle the levees and give the whole estuary back to the river, and c) rebuild on dry land somewhere. But realistically, the immediate cost would be staggering, so it won't happen.

[Jim]

Besides the recent budget cuts the Bushies put a political hack in charge of FEMA - one with no such experience. Check out his statements vs what was going on.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html

 

PP - I don't see the mayor of New Oreleans is to blame. They have been hammering on the feds for a decade to 1) improve the levees, 2) protect the pumping system, and 3) solidify the disaster plan. It is a federal levee system ya know. Certainly this spans more than one administration - but the recent budget slashing for anything except Iraq is coming back to haunt us. It is a natural disaster, but human decisions have certainly made things worse than they had to be.

[Dechristo]

turbid water containing as much as 50% raw sewage, not to mention oil and gas

 

base stock for spicy gumbo...mmmmm, better den good!

[Peter_Puget]

Hmmm don't ya think that those nicely parked buses could have been used for something?

[Mal_Con]

The Port of New Orleans is the largest one in North America and 4th in the world It is the primary shipment point for oil in North America. It will be rebuilt. You cannot locate a port inland.

[Jim]

Here's an interesting series of articles done by the New Orleans Times-Picayune on the vunerability of the levee system. Interesting reading about the system - physical and political.

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/?/washingaway/

[Peter_Puget]

Oh come on Jim stop googling and answer my question. Given how widespread the problems were don't you feel that all those parked buses (100s) could have been put to better use by the local leadership?

[Dru]

The Port of New Orleans is the largest one in North America and 4th in the world It is the primary shipment point for oil in North America. It will be rebuilt. You cannot locate a port inland.

 

You can locate a port anywhere with deep water and shelter from the waves. For instance if you dredge the river ships can come up the river.

[cj001f]

Oh come on Jim stop googling and answer my question. Given how widespread the problems were don't you feel that all those parked buses (100s) could have been put to better use by the local leadership?

Peter Puget is for forced government evacuations? There were free market options available to these persons, why didn't they take advantage?

[cj001f]

You can locate a port anywhere with deep water and shelter from the waves. For instance if you dredge the river ships can come up the river.

To be competitive nowadays the port needs to be located as close to open water as possible. See Portland, OR as example of uncompetitive port.

[Peter_Puget]

Oh come on Jim stop googling and answer my question. Given how widespread the problems were don't you feel that all those parked buses (100s) could have been put to better use by the local leadership?

Peter Puget is for forced government evacuations? There were free market options available to these persons, why didn't they take advantage?

 

Just as smart as always CJ@$#^%!

 

The most obvious of a slew of rejoinders would be...bus those wishing to be evacuated out of the city via thos ebuses!

Edited September 2, 2005 by Peter_Puget

[murraysovereign]

Hmmm don't ya think that those nicely parked buses could have been used for something?

 

Sure, if there'd been sufficient manpower available to move all those buses to higher ground before the storm hit, but I suspect they had their hands pretty full in the couple of days leading up to the event. Obviously, a lot of valuable resources are unavailable due to their being destroyed or stranded by the storm and subsequent flooding. What's more disturbing, and conveniently not shown in the photo, is the thousands of similar buses all over the state (and Texas, and Mississippi, and New Mexico, and elsewhere) all sitting high and dry, still parked in nice neat rows for the past few days, while there was a clear and immediate need for transportation to move people out of the SuperDome and Convention Centre and elsewhere.

[cj001f]

The most obvious of a slew of rejoinders would be...bus those wishing to be evacuated out of the city via thos ebuses!

As always Peter your snide topical reply ignores a host of grim realities. Bus them. Where to? Who would drive the buses? What about the old? What about the infirm?

[Jim]

Oh come on Jim stop googling and answer my question. Given how widespread the problems were don't you feel that all those parked buses (100s) could have been put to better use by the local leadership?

 

The article is a very good description of the levee situation - I found it interesting - maybe you can educate youself instead of trying to deflect the criticism of the feds. I'm surprised you're actually getting hot under the collar about this and not just posting a link. But I digress. Yea - I think that lots could have been done, but where the heck do you suppose the major would have ordered thoses busses (we'll take up the insignificant tangent. Broad disaster planning, particularly in floodprone areas is the responsiblity of FEMA (in coor with local jurisdicitons) Jurisdictions like these just don't have the money and resources to mobilize. And with infrastructure that's important from a national scale - ports, oil refinery, chemical industry, etc. they should be taking the lead. Sure - the buses should have been moved, along with all the people that got stuck - but large scale planning such as this needs to be led by the state and feds. And in this case the feds have dropped the ball on planning and rescue implementation.