sexual_chocolate Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 So Becky aids a route, adds bolts that are now rusty and beyond recognition, and says they can't be replaced? Oh good lord, someone's having some mortality issues, no? "I will build a statue in my image, and none shall...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Whoa man that ain't cool, and this is definately showing disrespect, are you aware what you've just done???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 the bolts are recongnizeable and useable to the fact that they guide the rope to the next gear placement, so cocoa whatever....this entire bolt or not to bolt chatter really is creating some good hate. In all seriousness, Fred does not give a flying fuk as he has many more peaks to bag before all us poor suckers quit bickering and even get off this stupid chat forumn. He is in the Sierras and if you all want I will ask him the next time he decides to check his mail. If you do pull the bolt and replace it with a shiny new bolt, (I bet) it will be yanked, not by me (as I have other time wasters in mind), but by someone else..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 The route was originally AID by FRED. freed by (I think) another party According to the Kramer guide, Marts and Burgner freed it 4 years later. ....but really....in material. Bolt is there, rusty and why waste time to replace mank so far away from the car... plus, this is in the wilderness. Leave the route alone. It's been safely climbed countless times as is. The need to "fix" it is contrived and pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 Dberdinka and I linked pitches (as indicated below) so you don't need to use those bolts (unless I'm confused about which bolts you are referring to). The placements near the bolts in question are solid so you can easily skip them. There is a small ledge with cracks for an anchor just above them. 60m rope variation: P1 = short climb/scramble to the big tree. P2 = chimney, layback, and walk the ledge over to the base of the 5.9 finger crux. P3 = 5.9 crux, two corners and small roofs, pass bolts in question, belay at horizontal cracks and semi-hanging belay. P4 = Corner with many pins leading up to a sea of knobs. P5 = Knobs to goatland. Lastly, there are many pins and bolt-like things on the pitch above the bolts in question that looked questionable. In these spots it would be hard to place nuts or cams, so if you're on a mission to replace fixed gear I'd look into those instead. Leave the route alone. It's been safely climbed countless times as is. The need to "fix" it is contrived and pointless. That's what I think too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken4ord Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 Dberdinka and I linked pitches (as indicated below) so you don't need to use those bolts (unless I'm confused about which bolts you are referring to). The placements near the bolts in question are solid so you can easily skip them. There is a small ledge with cracks for an anchor just above them. 60m rope variation: P1 = short climb/scramble to the big tree. P2 = chimney, layback, and walk the ledge over to the base of the 5.9 finger crux. P3 = 5.9 crux, two corners and small roofs, pass bolts in question, belay at horizontal cracks and semi-hanging belay. P4 = Corner with many pins leading up to a sea of knobs. P5 = Knobs to goatland. Lastly, there are many pins and bolt-like things on the pitch above the bolts in question that looked questionable. In these spots it would be hard to place nuts or cams, so if you're on a mission to replace fixed gear I'd look into those instead. With a 70m rope you can get down to 4 pitches. Scramble to the big tree. P1 to the clump of of trees after the 5.9 crux. P2 to the horizontals belay. P3 to the ledge in knobland. P4 to goatland. I guess it might be 5 if we belayed to the big tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Ok, i'm feeling in the mood for a nice tempest in a teapot so... Has anyone considered replacing the two bolts at the belay between the 4th and 5th pitchs on Orbit? (2 old rusty 1/4" bols, one with a home-made hanger, that are roughly 4 ft apart). The belay isn't bad, 1 good nut placement for a downward pull (but pointless for any upward) and a small crack you could get a cam or two into (blue TCU size). I don't think I'd trust the bolts for a direct fall onto the anchor and the spacing is so awkward that it makes for some bad angles if you try to tie them together. Seems to be a good opportunity to streamline, and increase the safety level of the belay without adding any new bolts. Fire away! Now that I've climbed the route, I understand what happened to Josh. He should have continued climbing past the tree he belayed at on the previous pitch (mentioned in later post). He would have come to a small belay stance with a 1/2-1" horizontal at eye level for an anchor (piton scars). From here he would have made it all the way to a spacious belay ledge below a roof with a 1-2" horizontal crack for an anchor. This is immediately before the start of the chicken heads. So the bolts are really midway through the pitch and would have made a horible place to belay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberdinka Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Rad didn't quite get his post right above. In fact he didn't even mention the bolts in question, probably because they are even worth mentioning (as in being kinda pointless). Obviously you can break the climb down into 7,6,5,4,3,whatever pitches and belay all over the place, but the stance at the bolts in question is not a neccesary or particularly good place to belay. After climbing the 5.9 finger crack and the slick dihedral above I've always belayed about 30' higher at a nice, exposed small stance with a great horizontal that eats gear. A short strech of face climbing leads into the dihedral in question. In total it's a 55 m pitch or so to the big ledge atop the difficulties. Replacing the bolts in unnecessary and doesn't really qualify as an "improvement" on such an old, classic route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 Now that I've climbed the route and been privilege to all of your collected wisdom it's very clear. Didn't do me much good as I was trying to onsight it though now did it? We lead the chimney, and belayed at a bush on the traverse to the 5.9 finger crack as the other end of my rope didn't feel comfortable leading 5.9 at the point. So I lead through the finger crack, and belayed at the bush just past it, where the team in front of us had was belaying. Then stretched the rope to the shitty belay at the two rusted bolts (by the way, it's a much better belay with a smaller nut than I used the 1st time), but still hanging. We then stretched the rope through the roof to the ledge, and on up to the top. Hind site is fantastic, but having move by move, belay by belay beta takes 1/2 the fun out of the climb. To someone leading it for the first time, depending on how they break the pitches (and who's if any trip report they read) it becomes a reasonble/critical belay depending on rope length. (the crack above is ok, but that belay has better points of protection.) So my question still stands..... It may not be an improvement, but doest it really detract from anything to replace two shitty bolts, with two good ones? Were certainly not talking about retrobolting a pitch, or bolting the chimney, or even adding bolts. If you like the history that just put in two shiny ones and leave the old rusted ones there for posterity. It wouldn't change the integrity of the climb, as when they were originally placed 30 years ago, those bolts were probably great instead of sketchy. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 I have climbed Orbit a few times and have never clipped a bolt on it and I think the natural pro is great. Take tricams and three small wires for the moves around the "Blank" corner. Other than that the pro is straightforward. "What difference would two new bolts make?" It would never stop. After a few more adventure climbs you will learn to love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted September 19, 2006 Author Share Posted September 19, 2006 Never stop replacing old bolts? and I always take small wires, and almost always have a couple small tri cams on any alpine/adventure type climb. I have no problem with adventure climbs! In general I think adding bolts in new places to climbs is horrendous thing to do. (Maybe with the first ascentionists permission, if they're justified and thought out, i.e. Dans Dreadful Direct) However replacing old rusted, POS's is another thing entirely. They were placed with the intention of being good, strong belay bolts, and likely before you or I ever climbed it. I think the ones on top of Kangaroo Temple are ripe to be replaced as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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