scrambled_legs Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 I bought a few of the new style cams a while ago. When I got home I was dissapointed to find that the axle on the #3 allowed about 1/4" gap between the cam lobes and the axle end. The axle shifts back and forth through the center and you can end up with two lobes on the left 1/4" further from the center post then the right side and vice versa. I thought it was a defect so I took it back to get exchanged but was surprised to see that all the #3's had the same gap and some of the #4's also. The store contacted BD and they explained that it wasn't a safety issue. After a bunch of contact back and forth, they finally said that they had redesigned the axle length to allow for grime and grit that gets into the moving parts. The tighter cams were still using the old axle length and all the new ones had a longer length. Is this really the truth???? If it is it seems a bit bogus as the springs already allow space for grit to escape and 1/4" of grit seems a bit far fetched. I've been searching stores to find a cam that has a tighter grouping but have been out of luck so far. I don't like the idea of climbing on a cam where the lobes can slide back and forth that amount. Anyone have some more info on this??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 I will email the question to my buddy who is an engineer for BD. You've got me curious now, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbb Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 lots of cams are that way already. check out most of the forged friends and the larger metolius cams. You can slide the lobes around a little bit, and it does actually help with getting the graphite in there when being serviced... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Yes, but it is still an interesting question from an engineering standpoint. Does it help with stability by spreading the fulcrum? Does it minimize cam walking by having two central-ish point? Is it really just a gimmick to allow for grungy climbers to stay grimy? I won't sleep til I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 I agree. I've played around with a bunch of them and they all do it, but it's not a safety issue. Like everyone else says, it makes them easier to clean and keep lubricated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 Sure they all do it to some extent but has anyone seen these new cams. I bought a #2,3 and 4 and the 2 and 4 have an 1/16" -1/8" of play at most. The #3 had 1/4". When I called the store, they got so freaked out that they pulled the whole lot. I went into another store and they did the same thing. No one calmly said that that's normal. As soon as the employees saw it they said holy $*#@ that isn't right and contacted BD. There is not only tons of play but when we measured the axle length on the #4's there were different lengths by more than 1cm on the new cams. This is either really poor workmanship or they had a problem with the machine setup on a few batches and because it wasn't as safety issue decided to save costs and sell them anyways or they are using the old axles with the new lobes and because of the size difference of the new lobes there is excessive play or they really do feel they need 1/4" of slop in the system to work the grit out. Whatever the answer it is nowhere near the amount of play found in metolious, dmm, aliens etc. and I really don't like it. I'll try and find a digital camera and take a picture so I can post it to show you what I mean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
111 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 A friend of mine found this problem(?) out after he got some camalots mailed to him. It wasn't just a gap on the axle, the lobes were so out of whack one side wouldn't expand unless pulled outward with force. I would consider this a major design problem if the play on the axle caused the lobes to stick. I believe they were catching on the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telemarker Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I think the rule of thumb on new gear is to wait a year to let others find the problems, inform the company, and have them produce the "final" product the following year bug-free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Here is the official word from BD'd QA Manager:  Axles of different Length  the short version of the explanation is that we increased the length of the axles on the #4 to allow for a bit more clearance. This was an in-line change. Both iterations were tested extensively and performed safely and well in all situations, however we decided that a little more room for clearance between the cam lobes, the side plates and the center cross bar allowed for the cam to function a little smoother especially when gunked up with dirt after sitting at the base of routes, like at Indian Creek, etc. so yes, there are cams in existence that have different length axles (of course one cam wouldn't have two different axles, rather some cams on your store shelf have axles that are longer than other cams on your store shelf). All units are safe, correct, and good to go.   Clearance between cam lobes, side plates and cross-bar What you're also seeing, and as I said earlier, is related to the axle length - is the amount of play, or the amount of side-to-side movement of the lobes on the axles again this is intentional and designed to allow the cams to function properly in all conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 i think its awesome that BD was willing to make an inline improvement to something already in production...it had to cost them a little bit...additionally, it showed that they were willing to continue to improve an already well functioning design   silky smooth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Sure they all do it to some extent but has anyone seen these new cams. I bought a #2,3 and 4 and the 2 and 4 have an 1/16" -1/8" of play at most. The #3 had 1/4". When I called the store, they got so freaked out that they pulled the whole lot. I went into another store and they did the same thing. No one calmly said that that's normal. As soon as the employees saw it they said holy $*#@ that isn't right and contacted BD. There is not only tons of play but when we measured the axle length on the #4's there were different lengths by more than 1cm on the new cams. This is either really poor workmanship or they had a problem with the machine setup on a few batches and because it wasn't as safety issue decided to save costs and sell them anyways or they are using the old axles with the new lobes and because of the size difference of the new lobes there is excessive play or they really do feel they need 1/4" of slop in the system to work the grit out. Whatever the answer it is nowhere near the amount of play found in metolious, dmm, aliens etc. and I really don't like it. I'll try and find a digital camera and take a picture so I can post it to show you what I mean. Well, Scrambled Legs, since you "really don't like it", I am willing to take these DANGEROUS and potentially LIFE-THREATENING devices off of your hands, free of charge. I will be happy to endanger and threaten myself with bodily harm by testing these SCARY-LOOKING cams and will be happy to let you know the minute one doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 (edited) Well, Scrambled Legs, since you "really don't like it", I am willing to take these DANGEROUS and potentially LIFE-THREATENING devices off of your hands, free of charge. I will be happy to endanger and threaten myself with bodily harm by testing these SCARY-LOOKING cams and will be happy to let you know the minute one doesn't work. Â hahahah lmao... well not exactly but I'm glad I ammuse you. I'm not saying that they're life threatening etc. I thought they might be and that's why I contacted the store and BD. Funny thing is MEC didn't laugh like a drunken nut f#@%er like you, instead they pulled every cam off there shelves and contacted BD the same as every other store I went into. Â I'm still wondering if I wait for a while if these sloppy cams will dissapear and the shorter axles will replace them on the shelves. It just appears to be really crappy quality with everything sliding around and I don't see how it will help keep the grit from locking the lobes when the axle can still slide to one side and pinch all the moving parts on the other side. Â Oh and freak before you laugh yourself off that narrow ledge of sanity that you're standing on you should know that BD just fired two of there assembly line staff for assembling biners incorrectly. I don't know if they caught it before it hit shelves but it caused significantly lower closed strength ratings. Sometimes it happens no matter how great a QC program you have in place. Edited August 10, 2005 by scrambled_legs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashclimber Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Im sure MEC put them back on the shelf by now! By the way I checked out mine (BD's) and a buddies from 1st generation and on...1st generation gives the least...after that they start to give more and more with each generation....As long as they keep holding my falls, I'll keep on using them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 hahahah lmao... well not exactly but I'm glad I ammuse you. I'm not saying that they're life threatening etc. I thought they might be and that's why I contacted the store and BD. Funny thing is MEC didn't laugh like a drunken nut f#@%er like you, instead they pulled every cam off there shelves and contacted BD the same as every other store I went into. And that proves what besides retail stores have the sub room temperature IQ we've assumed for years? Get a grip man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdietsch Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 I will email the question to my buddy who is an engineer for BD. Â Did your buddy have anything to say about this remark ? Â A friend of mine found this problem(?) out after he got some camalots mailed to him. It wasn't just a gap on the axle, the lobes were so out of whack one side wouldn't expand unless pulled outward with force. I would consider this a major design problem if the play on the axle caused the lobes to stick. I believe they were catching on the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrambled_legs Posted August 12, 2005 Author Share Posted August 12, 2005 (edited) I think that's what I'm most concerned about too. If the axle stays centered it allows a slight gap on each side. But the axle doesn't stay centered, it slides back and forth leaving one side pinched and the other with the lobes significantly further out on the axle. Â I'd love to see freaks response to his friend who says, hey isn't this pin supposed to be centered in the biner? hahahaha lmao.... if you're unhappy with the biner put it on my rack hahaha.... Edited August 12, 2005 by scrambled_legs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted August 12, 2005 Share Posted August 12, 2005 Whatever - but I'll still take those cames if you don't want them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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