Boycott the U.S. Military

[knelson]

So when you say civilized society you mean like blowing yourself up inside of a pizza parlor, flying airplanes into buildings, driving cars full of explosive through checkpoints, killing elected officials of a newly free goverment to a country of which you aren't even a citizen of?

 

Don't think anyone in this thread has claimed that those folks are what one would consider "civilized."

 

But the comment about killing elected officials of which you aren't even a citizen of made me reread your statement making sure you weren't talking about the US!

[jon]

And, alas, your failure to see the value in human life beyond the borders of this country is the same sort of position that landed this country in this downward-spiraling vicious cycle of violence.

 

And that is why I study a disease that is ravaging all of Africa and other third world countries. NICE TRY DICKHEAD!

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

But the comment about killing elected officials of which you aren't even a citizen of made me reread your statement making sure you weren't talking about the US!

 

Irony ROCKS!

[Dr_Flash_Amazing]

And, alas, your failure to see the value in human life beyond the borders of this country is the same sort of position that landed this country in this downward-spiraling vicious cycle of violence.

 

And that is why I study a disease that is ravaging all of Africa and other third world countries. NICE TRY DICKHEAD!

 

So why the disconnect between what you study and what you profess politically? You said it yourself, in so many words, that torture is no big deal; didn't sound too concerned about innocent people being tortured. Your own words speak against you!

[knelson]

And, alas, your failure to see the value in human life beyond the borders of this country is the same sort of position that landed this country in this downward-spiraling vicious cycle of violence.

 

And that is why I study a disease that is ravaging all of Africa and other third world countries. NICE TRY DICKHEAD!

 

[snugtop]

So when you say civilized society you mean like blowing yourself up inside of a pizza parlor, flying airplanes into buildings, driving cars full of explosive through checkpoints, killing elected officials of a newly free goverment to a country of which you aren't even a citizen of?

 

No absolutely not. I just don't think we should sink to that level of brutality.

 

Here's the problem (as I see it anyways): If you allow torture whether officially (a la Saddam's regime) or unofficially (a la W's regime) you make a deal with the devil. How can we take the moral high ground on all the things you just listed when we're exporting our prisoners--I mean "enemy combatants"--to counties that will submerge their arms and legs in boiling water--and other even sicker shit??

[jon]

What I profess politically? I don't profess anything politically I hate politics, I hate Bush, I actually don't even like a lot of things about our country. I hate people like you who just complain all day long but do nothing to make their world or community a better place. I hate SUVs. I hate mayonaisse. Should I continue?

 

No I'm not too concerned about the people who are being tortured because what I'm I going to do about it? Did I say innocent people should be tortured? No I didn't, that is wrong. There is no disconnect, but I'm not going to show compasion for people who don't by no means deserve it. I'm also not blind to the fact there are times when desperate times require desperate measures.

 

Hey isn't this where you post some lyrics to a song I don't care about?

[snugtop]

there are times when desperate times require desperate measures.

 

The people blowing themselves up in discos and pizza parlors and flying planes into buildings would say the exact same thing.

[jon]

The people blowing themselves up in discos and pizza parlors and flying planes into buildings would say the exact same thing.

 

So what do you do about it?

[knelson]

... I hate people like you who just complain all day long but do nothing to make their world or community a better place...

 

...No I'm not too concerned about the people who are being tortured because what I'm I going to do about it?

 

...I'm also not blind to the fact there are times when desperate times require desperate measures.

 

I can just *feel* the compassion exuding from your pores.

[ChrisT]

I think torture is unavoidable - -like it or not it’s a normal part of warfare. What irks me is when our leaders avoid responsibility for said military torture tactics leaving 19 year old photo snapping depraved privates to take the rap.

[snugtop]

 

So what do you do about it?

 

Well, since you asked...

 

On the larger scale we should pursue foreign policy that doesn't make desperate people even more desperate.

 

Regarding the current military deploynent, we should NEVER engage in torture and we should clean up our military so that when abuses do occur they are investigated immediately and the people responsible are held accountable. We should get rid of this "enemy combatant" crap devised by W's legal jackals and admit that the Guantanomo prisoners are actually prisoners, and should have the rights afforded to them by the Geneva Convention.

[Dechristo]

Maybe we should all just click our heels together while repeating,

 

"There's no place like home, there's no place like home,..."

[Stonehead]

Instead of trying to dodge and evade responsibility for what we are doing by attacking the "liberal media" and blaming it all on some rogue little guy when the problems are obviously systemic and our leaders have actually encouraged this kind of thing in statement after statement about how this is war and the Geneva Conventions don't apply, our leaders should be apologizing for what our boys have done and actually taking steps to correct this situation. Simutaneously, when we see some orchestrated rioting, or a campaign for suicide bombing or whatever it is, we should call a spade a spade and hold the religous and political leaders in Saudia Arabia and other "friendly" countries accountable for encouraging what is clearly unholy slaughter, no matter which book you adhere to.

 

The problem is, we've got ourselves into a mess and our leaders just want to avoid taking responsibility for it.

 

Call me crazy, unfocused, or whatever. We're trying to pose solutions for problems that have no specific answers unless one lives in an ideal world.

 

Ok, so what I’m reading it’s all about accountability on all sides. But wise men know that morality falls by the wayside in the pursuit of power, that a certain ruthlessness is required according to the circumstances.

 

In the grand sweep of history, these incidents will be an aberration in time and the lasting imprint will be our political-economic impact.

 

After the fall of the Soviet Union, Francis Futuyama proclaimed the ‘End of History' with the triumph of liberal democracy--a global free market and capitalist paradise. As such, I don’t see as much threat from a regressive Muslim world as I do from the progressive advance of socio-technological change.

 

Change produces societal upheaval and we strive to maintain control with the same very tools that caused the disruptions. The struggle against Islamic fundamentalism, if we can even call it that, will be a footnote in history compared to the very likely threat of totalitarianism in our own system.

 

"The buck stops here." That’s what President Truman said when he made the decision to drop atomic weapons and took responsibility for that momentous action. But what does that mean? The victor loses nothing in taking accountability. So, accountability is ultimately meaningless. It’s merely political and partisan.

 

I have the feeling though as I did in the Reagan years of an existence of a shadow government. It’s like some kind of crime boss who feigns ignorance because all he did was order his lieutenants to take care of the problem. If it’s intimidation, then intimidate but don’t tell me the details, just do it. Yeah, the Teflon president. Ronald Reagan is dead. But look again. We still see the continuation of that Teflon shield in members of our current administration. And man, I think, they upgraded the quality of that Teflon!

 

So, what's stopping Bush from facing directly into the camera during a State of Union address and boldly admitting mistakes were made at high levels? Going on and saying that we are on ‘terra incognita’. We are striving to forge a new path consistent with our vision of the future, that future generations will recognize our contributions as a lasting American legacy. That’s a fantasy. All I know is that Bush has the luxury of never having to say he’s sorry.

 

I do feel as if we have entered a phase of total war simultaneously attacking on all fronts, the domestic and foreign. That’s boldness. We are facing a party emboldened by the massive consolidation of power. Coming to you soon…a Republican Thousand Year Reich (or at least 45 years as the Democrats had as majority party).

[jon]

On the larger scale we should pursue foreign policy that doesn't make desperate people even more desperate.

 

Like?

 

Regarding the current military deploynent, we should NEVER engage in torture and we should clean up our military so that when abuses do occur they are investigated immediately and the people responsible are held accountable. We should get rid of this "enemy combatant" crap devised by W's legal jackals and admit that the Guantanomo prisoners are actually prisoners, and should have the rights afforded to them by the Geneva Convention.

 

And how would we clean up our military? Get rid of the podunk 19 YO private making 18k a year. Should we replace them with highly educated individuals with morals like DFA? You need to be more specific, because generalizing things makes it sound so damned simple.

 

From my standpoint a person who has spent years in a terrorist training camp learning how to kill us, and has been captured, should not be provided the rights of a citizen of this country.

 

Oh one last thing, the whole accountability thing. If you haven't noticed, it's common modus operandi to deny involvement and accountability in our society, I mean they start teaching it in Kindergarden.

[Jim]

I hate people like you who just complain all day long but do nothing to make their world or community a better place. I hate SUVs. I hate mayonaisse. Should I continue?

 

No I'm not too concerned about the people who are being tortured because what I'm I going to do about it? Did I say innocent people should be tortured? No I didn't, that is wrong. There is no disconnect, but I'm not going to show compasion for people who don't by no means deserve it. I'm also not blind to the fact there are times when desperate times require desperate measures.

 

Hey isn't this where you post some lyrics to a song I don't care about?

 

And this attitude makes for good sheep. You can look around and shrug your shoulders or you can do something, anything, to change things. It's your choice.

 

Or you can be part of the Seattle culture that says how much you hate _________ (insert your choice) but well, I'm busy and someone else will take care of it. If you're really lacking on where to start I work with a couple of organizations that are starving for voulenteer help.

[jon]

And this attitude makes for good sheep. You can look around and shrug your shoulders or you can do something, anything, to change things. It's your choice.

 

Or you can be part of the Seattle culture that says how much you hate _________ (insert your choice) but well, I'm busy and someone else will take care of it. If you're really lacking on where to start I work with a couple of organizations that are starving for voulenteer help.

 

Right on dude! There are so many people and issues that need help, many of them local, and it's a shame that people waste so much energy bellyaching over stuff that in reality they have no effect or control over.

[Stonehead]

"If you want to change the world, change the world inside yourself."

--Jello Biafra??

 

"All politics is local."

--former Speaker of the House, Tip O'Neil??

[Jim]

Ummm -this also applies to thinking nothing can be done regarding the US's increasing interest in torture.

[jon]

So what are you doing about it, besides complaining on a climbing website about it?

[Jim]

To start I wrote letters to my Senators and Congressman, the minority and majority leaders, and the head of the Senate Committee on Armed Services (Don't bother to email - these are generally ignored). I make it a point to stop by my Senators' offices twice a year with my concerns.

 

I consistenly work with a couple of voulenteer groups, one that focuses on foreign policy, the other domestic. If your interested I can PM you information. I know you'll likely poo-poo this, or any other efforts. But it beats sitting on you hands.

[jon]

I know you'll likely poo-poo this, or any other efforts. But it beats sitting on you hands.

 

No actually quite the opposite, my hats off to you even though we don't see eye to eye on this.

[Fairweather]

 

No I'm not too concerned about the people who are being tortured because what I'm I going to do about it? Did I say innocent people should be tortured? No I didn't, that is wrong. There is no disconnect, but I'm not going to show compasion for people who don't by no means deserve it. I'm also not blind to the fact there are times when desperate times require desperate measures.

 

Hey isn't this where you post some lyrics to a song I don't care about?

 

I'll do it.....

 

The Man's Too strong

 

 

I am just and aging drummer boy

And in the wars I used to play

And I've called the tune

To many a torture session

Now they say I am a war criminal

And I'm fading away

Father please hear my confession

I have legalized robbery

Called it a belief

I have run with the money

And hid like a theif

Re-written history

With my armies and my crooks

Invented memories

I did burn all the books

And I can still hear his laughter

And I can still hear his song

The man's too big

The man's too strong

Well I have tried to be meek

And I have tried to be mild

But I spat like a woman

And sulked like a child

I have lived behind walls

That have made me alone

Struggled for peace

Which I have never known

And I can still hear his laughter

And I can still hear his song

The man's too big

The man's too strong

Well the sun rose on the courtyard

And they all did hear him say

You always were a Judas

But I got you anyway

You may have got your silver

But I swear upon my life

Your sister gave me diamonds

And I gave them to your wife'

Oh father please help me

For I have done wrong

The man's too big

The man's too strong

 

 

 

 

Would Dr Flash condone torture to save a friend, family member...or another skyscraper full of innocents? I would.

[snugtop]

To start I wrote letters to my Senators and Congressman, the minority and majority leaders, and the head of the Senate Committee on Armed Services (Don't bother to email - these are generally ignored). I make it a point to stop by my Senators' offices twice a year with my concerns.

 

I consistenly work with a couple of voulenteer groups, one that focuses on foreign policy, the other domestic. If your interested I can PM you information. I know you'll likely poo-poo this, or any other efforts. But it beats sitting on you hands.

 

Right on Jim. You're doing a lot more than most of us, myself included.

 

I wrote to Maria Cantwell on the torture issue when I read the New Yorker article on the subject (I posted the link on page 1) It really was an eye-opening article, for me at least. I got a stock letter back (I'm sure it was filed under "Iraq-POWs" or something) but it's all I could think of doing.

 

I agree, volunteering locally is the way to go. But it's bad to feel that the foreign policy isses are hopelessly out of our control. I think it's that kind of thinking that keeps people from voting and gets fools like W. elected.

[selkirk]

Would Dr Flash condone torture to save a friend, family member...or another skyscraper full of innocents? I would.

 

That's not the whole question though, just a convient simplification trying to paint things in terms of us/them, black/white, good/evil.

 

How about can we accomplish the same ends through other means than torture?

 

Does torture actually help our cause and advance our goals, or is it detrimental to them?

 

And possibly most telling, is it an effective, important tool, or is it a unnecessary byproduct of our disregard for those who we identify as "the enemy", or as un-american? They aren't american, so they're less, and therefore our actions don't mean as much?

 

If were going to decry their torture, and murder of our civilian contractors and military personal, and respond with retaliation, then they have every right to as well.

 

WE ARE ALL HUMAN. To believe that they are simply bent on distruction of everything because they are "evil" is naive and prideful. In their own minds, we are invaders, we are destroying their culture, they're way of life, we are "evil".

 

You want to win this war, really, truly, finally, and completely? Don't torture them, kill them, humiliate them. That only lends credence to their beliefs. Change their minds. "Winning the Hearts and Minds" was the perfect aspiration in Vietnam, it was just very poorly pursued.

 

To win this kind of a war you need to stifle terrorist recruitment. They're blowing themselves up already, with more people inline to do the same, do you think they care if we kill a few more through torture? Or minor skirmishes? Its necessary to change how the US is percieved by the populace and the poor.

 

And right now by many accounts were doing a crappy job.

And every case of abuse, detainment without charge, transfering prisoners elsewhere for abuse, every dirty little thing we do makes their case stronger, and their recruitment easier. You can't stop terrorism by killing all the terrorists. Hasn't the conflict in Israel been enough to show that? You can lock them down, take away any and all weapons, attack at every chance you get, and if people are willing to commit suicide to make their point, there is very little you can do stop them.

Unless you kill ALL OF THEM. And I don't even know of the neo-cons have the stomach for that.