"support our troops..."

[selkirk]

But again, how evenly was the draft applied? It may have been random in concept, but it seems that political strings can get pulled, and were back to the loss of life being a somewhat abstract concept for those making the decisions, instead of the loss of life possibly including their sons and daughters.

 

Even if a draft is applied equally, strings will be pulled regarding where/in what capacity draftees are assigned. Not everyone serves a combat role on the front line.

 

But then it's not being applied equally. Not everyone needs to be on the front line, but no one should be in the rear just because daddy knows a general.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

But then it's not being applied equally. Not everyone needs to be on the front line, but no one should be in the rear just because daddy knows a general.

 

In the past, not being applied "equally" meant getting out of having to serve completely. And you're dreaming if you think there is a way to force "equality" of fighting on the front lines. It's not "equal" as it is.

[mec]

Give it money or send off to fight in a war, it is all VOLUNTARY!!!! Credit Card companies sell the ease to buy things, and low interest rates. The military sells training, team work and travel. Credit card companies do not tell you how easy it is to get in a shitload of debt, and the military does not tell you that you can die (I believe it is in the paperwork you sign though). I do agree the military is a much worse choice than a credit card, but in the end they are both voluntary.

 

Also, parents should not be complaiing about recruiters. Parents should be teaching their kids to make responsible, informed choices that they agree with in their heart. Not make decisions because someone is trying to sign you up for the military or sign you up for a credit card. If parents (with some teachers help) have taught their kids to make good decisions, then it should not be up to the parent to scare the recruiter away. They should know that their kids will make the right decision. Oh, but I guess I forgot many parents these days don't take an interest in their kids lives and upbringing.

[markinore]

Alex, I appreciate your logic. I also appreciate that the cause of equality would be better served by a draft than by the present method of obtaining soldiers, which is all too frequently just an economic form of conscription. I am not all that sure, however, that the existence of a draft temper Americans' enthusiasm for going to war on flimsy premises. After all, now that there is absolutely no doubt that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no weapons of mass destruction, look how many people still think this war was okay. It takes a hell of a lot of denial to support Bush's lies, but our country appears capable of providing it. The ribbon magnets are just a bonus.

[chucK]

Once you get a bit older you will realize that you have done things and written things that you think are pretty dumb. Parents understand that their children will not always make the best choice. Sometimes it's just the school of hard knocks, but when the risk entails death, disability, and a government sanctioned lifelong unbreakable contract, any good parent will understandably want to avoid their child becoming entangled in such a thing.

 

Children do not always follow their parents' advice.

Parents will do anything to protect their children. So along with taking an interest in their childs life and giving them good advice to not voluntarily sign their lives away because the video game the Army let them play was so cool, a good parent will hedge their bets and also seek to eradicate the child's exposure to lurking danger.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Once you get a bit older you will realize that you have done things and written things that you think are pretty dumb. Parents understand that their children will not always make the best choice. Sometimes it's just the school of hard knocks, but when the risk entails death, disability, and a government sanctioned lifelong unbreakable contract, any good parent will understandably want to avoid their child becoming entangled in such a thing.

 

Children do not always follow their parents' advice.

Parents will do anything to protect their children. So along with taking an interest in their childs life and giving them good advice to not voluntarily sign their lives away because the video game the Army let them play was so cool, a good parent will hedge their bets and also seek to eradicate the child's exposure to lurking danger.

 

Since when is an 18-year-old a child? Give me a break.

[chucK]

Alex is not advocating a draft. He is talking about mandatory military service (i.e. everyone).

 

If everybody in the US had more at stake in this Iraq War, I am certain it would never have gotten as far as it did.

[Winter]

If the conservative right thought the American public would support the Iraq war and a draft, we would already have a draft. The American public doesn't care enough about Iraq to support a draft and all the hawks know it. Want to see people start asking questions about intelligence failures etc? Start drafting kids out of college. Bush would send himself and his cronies to their political graves.

[chucK]

Maybe you made no stupid decisions when you were 18, but I sure as hell did. I'm lucky nothing really bad happened to me. I know I'm still going to be giving advice to my kids until well after they're 18.

 

Also remember this is a High School we're talking about here. Since when are all high-school kids 18 and over?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Maybe you made no stupid decisions when you were 18, but I sure as hell did. I'm lucky nothing really bad happened to me. I know I'm still going to be giving advice to my kids until well after they're 18.

 

18 is the cutoff that society has determined makes a person an adult. Either you are old enough to make decisions for yourself and take responsibility - or you are not. Of course you support parental consent for abortions under age 18, I suppose?

 

Also remember this is a High School we're talking about here. Since when are all high-school kids 18 and over?

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought you had to be 18 to "sign-up". If you are underage, your parents have to sign the papers as well...

[markinore]

Want to see people start asking questions about intelligence failures etc? Start drafting kids out of college. Bush would send himself and his cronies to their political graves.

 

This is a good point. 21 or 22 year olds, college educated or not, are not going to go for the bullshit as much as 18 year olds. I think the armed forces appreciates the value of those who are easily led and easily lied to.

[chucK]

I'm not talking about uniformly codifying anything.

 

I'm saying that if parents want to defend their (18+ year-old) kids against predators any way they can, that's fine with me. They have my support.

 

I don't see abortion clinics as predators.

Edited April 12, 2005 by chucK

[selkirk]

\

Since when is an 18-year-old an adult ? Give me a break.

 

works just as well, and holds just as true.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I don't see abortion clinics as predators.

 

You grant a child (under age 18) the right to make life and death decision in one case - a decision they can not fully understand - both morally and in terms of possible negative health affects. And this decision can be made without a parent's knowledge or advice.

 

In the other you posit that 18-year old "children" are not capable of deciding whether to serve in the military - a possible life and death decision. They need their parent's wisdom and guidance.

 

The military has only bad intentions; the abortion clinic has only the best of intentions.

 

I just love liberal "logic".

[Jim]

Back to the orginal concept - it's a great one. And I don't have any problem with the military in general, just the way the politicians weild the power. A stint in the armed forces might do some good to many kids. Especially the ones with soft hands from counting money.

[chucK]

You put a lot of words into my mouth.

 

I would object to allowing access to recruiters for abortions on campus if they got bonuses montetarily and in their career status for facilitating a minimum quota of teenage abortions.

 

Also, I seriously do not consider an abortion to be as large of a threat to my child as induction into the military, especially in a period of active combat. Use your twisted logic on that one.

[jon]

I know this might come as a shock, but most poeple in the military don't die in combat. It offers an opportunity for people who have no direction in life to find themselves and make some money, even go to college. These recruiters aren't looking for a bunch of dumbshits either, the are looking for highly intelligent people to be future leaders in the military.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I would object to allowing access to recruiters for abortions on campus if they got bonuses montetarily and in their career status for facilitating a minimum quota of teenage abortions.

 

I object to military recruiters on high school campuses as well. I did not think that that was the issue we were discussing.

 

Abortion practictioners (and clinics) are referred to by high school counselors, and they do benefit monetarily from their practice.

[Jim]

I know this might come as a shock, but most poeple in the military don't die in combat. It offers an opportunity for people who have no direction in life to find themselves and make some money, even go to college. These recruiters aren't looking for a bunch of dumbshits either, the are looking for highly intelligent people to be future leaders in the military.

 

These days their looking for anyone. They've bumped the age limit up, have set records in missing their recruiting targets, and the number of reported violations of recruiting folks that don't meet the minimum criteria (arrest records, drug records, education) are increasing. Frankly they are desperate and putting a lot of pressure on the recruiters. Now that has to be a bad job these days.

[chucK]

Jon,

According to the news I have been reading lately, the military are currently looking for motile warm bodies.

 

Kas,

I am totally against the idea that high-school counselors get kick-backs from clinics (abortion or otherwise). I'd find that hard to believe that that is happening though. Do they get kickbacks from tatoo parlors too?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I am totally against the idea that high-school counselors get kick-backs from clinics (abortion or otherwise).

 

Are you saying that schools get kickbacks from the military/US gov't for how many students enlist? If that is happening, I oppose that as well. I've never heard of it before. It should be illegal

 

I'd find that hard to believe that that is happening though. Do they get kickbacks from tatoo parlors too?

 

I never said they got kickbacks, but they can (and do) refer students to their services gratis. No judgement there, just establishing that a linkage exists.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

These days their looking for anyone. They've bumped the age limit up, have set records in missing their recruiting targets, and the number of reported violations of recruiting folks that don't meet the minimum criteria (arrest records, drug records, education) are increasing. Frankly they are desperate and putting a lot of pressure on the recruiters. Now that has to be a bad job these days.

 

It seems to me that this is a good thing. If we are committed to a volunteer army, and can not raise enough support for our military campaigns, then we will have to scale them back.

[chucK]

Are you saying that schools get kickbacks from the military/US gov't for how many students enlist? If that is happening, I oppose that as well. I've never heard of it before. It should be illegal

 

I'd agree, but that's not what I'm alleging. I'm referring to the military recruiters, who are allowed on campus (and the schools are forced to allow them or lose NCLB funding), have incentives to recruit a certain number of people. (see link on first post of this thread ).

[selkirk]

However universities can have funding pulled for not allowing recruiters onto campus.

 

And somehow I missed the bit about allowing minors to get abortions without parental consent. Now the morning after pill as over the counter, I can get behind.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'm referring to the military recruiters, who are allowed on campus (and the schools are forced to allow them or lose NCLB funding)...

 

This exemplifies why I oppose big government. It should be the other way around - that is *illegal* for military recruiters to be allowed on public school campuses period. Tying this to NCLB really makes me